The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[watson]

Originally Posted by 8ankitj

Aus XI:

Bob Simpson | Bill Ponsford | Don Bradman * | Ricky Ponting | Greg Chappell | Adam Gilchrist + | Keith Miller | Allan Davidson | Shane Warne | Dennis Lillee | Glenn McGrath

It's little harsh to leave out Bill O'Reilly, but not sure if we really need two spinners in Aus XI.

Or conversely, do we really need four fast bowlers in an Aussie ATG XI?

Lillee-McGrath-Miller
Lillee-Davidson-Miller
McGrath-Davidson-Miller

One of the above combo's should be plenty.

[8ankitj]

ENG XI:

Jack Hobbs | Len Hutton* | Wally Hammond | Dennis Compton | Ken Barrington | Ian Botham | Les Ames + | Fred Trueman | Jim Laker | George Lohmann | Sydney Barnes

That opening combo is one to die for...

[Jager]

Gilchrist making it into an Australian AT XI upsets me somewhat - seems a keeper's batting is now well and truly more important than their glovework these days

England
1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Wally Hammond
4. Peter May
5. Denis Compton
6. Douglas Jardine
7. Alan Knott
8. Harold Larwood
9. Hedley Verity
10. Sydney Barnes
11. Fred Trueman

[8ankitj]

No Ian Botham?

[Monk]

Originally Posted by Jager

Gilchrist making it into an Australian AT XI upsets me somewhat - seems a keeper's batting is now well and truly more important than their glovework these days

I agree with you about the importance of keeping, but I disagree if you're inferring that Gilchrist wasn't a good keeper. Keeping to Warne would have been the most difficult wicket-keeping task in the last 30-40 years, and Gilly did a very clean and efficient job of it.

Gilchrist did drop some easy-ish catches late in his career, and to his credit he retired quickly, as he knew he was declining.

I think there is a certain element of golden nostalgia associated with guys like Tallon, who were probably very very good, but I can't think of any reason why they were any more effective as keepers than Gilchrist, other than their peers saying they were good.

[Dan]

If we were comparing Andy Flower, for example, to Don Tallon that it's the latter every time. However, Gilchrist's wicketkeeping was fantastic, it just kept getting overshadowed by his batting. As a package, Gilchrist > Tallon.

Australia:
Bob Simpson
Victor Trumper
Sir Donald Bradman
Greg Chappell
Keith Miller
Ricky Ponting
Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn McGrath
(Alan Davidson)

England
Sir Leonard Hutton
Sir Jack Hobbs
Ken Barrington
Denis Compton
Wally Hammond
Kevin Pietersen
Sir Ian Botham
Allan Knott
Harold Larwood
Fred Trueman
Sydney Barnes
(Jim Laker)

South Africa
Bruce Mitchell
Barry Richards
Dudley Nourse
Graeme Pollock
Jacques Kallis
Aubrey Faulkner
Dennis Lindsay
Mike Procter
Shaun Pollock
Dale Steyn
Allan Donald
(Hugh Tayfield)

India
Sunil Gavaskar
Vijay Merchant
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Vijay Hazare
N Kapil Dev
Farokh Engineer
Anil Kumble
Mohammad Nissar
Erapalli Prassana
Bishan Bedi
(Javagal Srinath)

Pakistan
Hanif Mohammad
Majid Khan
Zaheer Abbas
Javed Miandad
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Imran Khan
Rashid Latif
Wasim Akram
Fazal Mahmood
Abdul Qadir
Waqar Younis
(Saeed Anwar)

West Indies
Gordon Greenidge
Sir Frank Worrell
George Headley
Brian Lara
Sir Vivian Richards
Sir Garfield Sobers
Sir Clyde Walcott
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Curtley Ambrose
(Lance Gibbs)

[Monk]

Originally Posted by rvd619323

Australia:
Bob Simpson
Victor Trumper
Sir Donald Bradman
Ian Chappell
Keith Miller
Ricky Ponting
Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn McGrath
(Alan Davidson)

I like this, but I'm not sure if you meant Greg...

If you didn't (or did) I like it, a lot...

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Monk

I like this, but I'm not sure if you meant Greg...

If you didn't (or did) I like it, a lot...

Meant Greg. Went back and filled in first names later, and Chappelli is the first that springs to mind when I read the last name.

[Jager]

Dan I think you place too much importance on the batting skills of wicketkeepers, at least for my liking. Gilchrist, Walcott, Lindsay and Latif are very much outclassed with the gloves by the likes of Healy, Dujon, Waite and Bari - it's all preference though, of course

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Jager

Dan I think you place too much importance on the batting skills of wicketkeepers, at least for my liking. Gilchrist, Walcott, Lindsay and Latif are very much outclassed with the gloves by the likes of Healy, Dujon, Waite and Bari - it's all preference though, of course

Gilchrist's wicketkeeping was of an extremely high standard, and his batting far outweighs Healey's slight advantage with the gloves; you lose next to nothing behind the stumps, but nigh on 30 runs with the bat.

Walcott is far too good to leave out, and kept with distinction to Ramadhin and Valentine. Ideally I'd play him as a specialist bat and pick Dujon, but the other middle order options are far too strong.

Waite was extremely close to pushing Lindsay out, but once again I didn't feel like there was a huge difference in their wicketkeeping.

And I originally did pick Bari, however I wanted to play Fazal and Akram isn't a Test number 7. If I played MoYo in place of Fazal, I would select Bari and bat him at 10.

[Flametree]

Not much love for Sutcliffe on these pages?

England :
1st xi : Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Hammond, Compton, Woolley, Knott *, Botham, Trueman, Laker, Barnes

2nd xi : Boycott, Amiss, Barrington, May, Dexter, Leyland, Ames *, Verity, Larwood, Bedser, Statham

3rd xi : Gooch, Edrich J, Mead, Paynter, Pietersen, Jackson FS, Tate, Evans *, Underwood, Snow, Lohmann

Australia :
1st xi : Ponsford, Simpson, Harvey, Bradman, Chappell G, Miller K, Gilchrist *, Davidson, Warne, O'Reilly, Lillee

2nd xi : Trumper, Barnes, McCabe, Macartney, Border, Waugh S, Healy *, Lindwall, Grimmett, Turner, McGrath

3rd xi : Morris, Lawry, Hill, Hassett, Walters, Hussey, Gregory, Tallon *, Gillespie, Grimmett, Johnston

[watson]

Originally Posted by Jager

Gilchrist making it into an Australian AT XI upsets me somewhat - seems a keeper's batting is now well and truly more important than their glovework these days

England
1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Wally Hammond
4. Peter May
5. Denis Compton
6. Douglas Jardine
7. Alan Knott
8. Harold Larwood
9. Hedley Verity
10. Sydney Barnes
11. Fred Trueman

I like this team a lot. Not playing Botham enables the inclusion of a great captain - Jardine. Jardine and Botham batting at No.5 and No.6 respectively would weaken the middle-order far too much. As its stands there is plenty of depth and a nice blend of attacking and defensive batsman.

It has two fast bowlers to share the new ball (one fast bowler is at least 50% short) and two very different spin bowlers who give excellent variety to the attack. Verity is preferred over Laker because he is just as skillful, but has the added bonus of being a left-armer. And a left-armer that Bradman happens to dislike facing.

I still prefer John Snow over Verity, but that's just me being overly pedantic with the 'fire-power' thing. I'll leave Bradman to the angry skill of SF Barnes who would be more than capable of holding his own.

I also think that a left-handed batsman gives added strength to the middle-order because they are better equiped to play leg-spinners. Gower, Leyland, and Woolley were all fabulous against leg-spin and would play Warne and O'Reilly exceedingly well in an Ashes battle.

I don't think that the team loses anything at all by replacing Hutton with Sutcliffe. Both were defensive batsman with near perfect techniques, although Hutton probably had slightly better footwork against spin bowling.

In a 5 Test match Ashes series I predict a 2-2 result with Australia having the better of the draw.

[Jager]

Agreed in regards to Sutcliffe/Hutton - pairing Sutcliffe with Hobbs gives you the boost of the greatest opening partnership of all - near telepathic running in between wickets, attack blending with defense etc.

[Jager]

Does anyone know if Barry Richards batted in the middle order at any time during his FC career?

[harsh.skm]

Don't know about Barry playing in the middle order, never saw it happen.

With regards the England ATXI, it always puzzles me why so few people have all 3 Hobbs, Sutcliffe and Hutton in the team. It makes perfect sense. To leave out any one of them borders on the incredulous.

Hobbs* | Sutcliffe | Hutton | Hammond | Barrington | Botham | Knott +| Larwood | Laker/Verity | Trueman | Barnes

Why would you leave Sutcliffe out when he was part of the greatest opening partnership in English history, and has a standalone average of 60 for goodness sake. As I said earlier, a difference of 5-7 runs in the averages is fine, but a difference of >10 should not be overlooked.