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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #1576
    International Vice-Captain Mike5181's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I understand now - and yes, I think that you're correct.

    Which is why, incidently, that Shane Bond is currently getting such high praise. On good days when Bond was unimpeded by injury he was a truly great bowler. But in reality there were not enough of those good days to make an open-and-shut case. Hence we go with our instinctual feelings that he belongs in the category marked great.
    Bond was a great skill-wise. Skill isn't the only factor in determining whether a player goes down as an all-time great though.

  2. #1577
    International Debutant the big bambino's Avatar
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    Bond's repautation can't really be sustained on his test figures alone. Superficially good his average is assisted by wrecking ball efforts against Zimbo and Bangers.His 2 tests against India in NZ, though against an impressive batting line up, were played on landmine pitches judging by the scores and he was slighted bested by Daryl Tuffey anyway. A terror on the seaming pitches in NZ he struggled away against Aus, SL and SA.

    On ODI figures there is no question his performance sustains his reputation. His fitness problems probably explain why he was a fitful performer in tests and a consistent performer in loi's. In the latter form he is definately a great.

  3. #1578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I think Gavaskar is a great cricketer, but it's well know the WIs thing has been overplayed.

    History of Cricket: The Myth of Sunil Gavaskar and the West Indies Quicks
    so , he is rated highly
    not with good reason ? (another issue)

  4. #1579
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sobers no:1 View Post
    so , he is rated highly
    not with good reason ? (another issue)
    No, he is rated highly with good reason, but not with the great reason erroneously documented in the past.
    ~ Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference ~


  5. #1580
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    No, he is rated highly with good reason, but not with the great reason erroneously documented in the past.
    in general ? or in cw ?

  6. #1581
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sobers no:1 View Post
    so , he is rated highly
    not with good reason ? (another issue)
    He has been lauded for his excellent record against the WIs. And it is excellent. But it's also misleading, because the majority of those matches WERE NOT against Marshall, Holding, Roberts and Garner, but much weaker bowling attacks.

    So, anyone who says "Sunil is the greatest opener ever because he succeeded against the pace might of the WIs in the 70s and 80s" is kind of wrong, or manipulating the truth...

  7. #1582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    He has been lauded for his excellent record against the WIs. And it is excellent. But it's also misleading, because the majority of those matches WERE NOT against Marshall, Holding, Roberts and Garner, but much weaker bowling attacks.

    So, anyone who says "Sunil is the greatest opener ever because he succeeded against the pace might of the WIs in the 70s and 80s" is kind of wrong, or manipulating the truth...
    so the general perception of gavaskar being arguably greatest modern era batsman (along with sobers , pollock , barry, viv, sachin and lara ) is wrong .


    hmmm..
    gavaskar's primary duty was not making runs , but not to get out. how many balls dd he survive in those matches against mighty pace attack ? ( out of curiosity)

  8. #1583
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sobers no:1 View Post
    so the general perception of gavaskar being arguably greatest modern era batsman (along with sobers , pollock , barry, viv, sachin and lara ) is wrong .


    hmmm..
    gavaskar's primary duty was not making runs , but not to get out. how many balls dd he survive in those matches against mighty pace attack ? ( out of curiosity)
    Oh for a strong arm and a walking stick

  9. #1584
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Lol.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  10. #1585
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    Ok. Say we follow this process. Then, during the initial selection of the XI, what incentive do you have to pick Wasim over Waqar? Or Sachin over Lara? Almost 0, right? This is the reason I don't pick Imran as a bowler in my XI, but prefer Hadlee coming in at number 8.
    First off, though I rate Sachin over Lara, it is by a hair and there is nothing wrong with picking Lara over Sachin. Sachin also had his inconsistent years, his struggles againts some of the '90's quicks and has gorged on minnow bowling over his career.
    Secondly I don't rate Wasim that highly for reasons stated previously and frequently, though fully understand why he was picked by cricinfo for the first xi.
    So please don't use the Lara/Sachin, Wasim/Waqar argument like it's a cut and dry case of who was better

  11. #1586
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    A Simple study on allrounders:

    Their batting average plus their wickets per match (a very good indicator of an allrounder's value to the team) x10. Implying that 5 wickets per match is the same as averging 50 (which of course is debatable).

    Qualification: batting average over 20, wickets per match over 1.50. 1000 runs/100 wickets.



    GS Sobers (WI) 83.05
    Imran Khan (Pak) 78.83
    Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 77.28
    JH Kallis (ICC/SA) 74.37
    Shakib Al Hasan (Ban) 72.41
    SM Pollock (SA) 71.29
    IT Botham (Eng) 71.09
    CL Cairns (NZ) 68.69
    MH Mankad (India) 68.29
    KR Miller (Aus) 67.88
    AK Davidson (Aus) 66.86
    IK Pathan (India) 66.05
    GP Swann (Eng) 65.92
    MW Tate (Eng) 65.22
    AW Greig (Eng) 64.74
    TL Goddard (SA) 64.46
    N Kapil Dev (India) 64.18
    R Benaud (Aus) 63.82
    MG Johnson (Aus) 63.62
    Wasim Akram (Pak) 62.45
    DL Vettori (ICC/NZ) 62.24
    B Lee (Aus) 60.94
    A Flintoff (Eng/ICC) 60.38
    SCJ Broad (Eng) 59.08
    MA Noble (Aus) 59.06
    RR Lindwall (Aus) 58.53
    G Giffen (Aus) 56.58
    WPUJC Vaas (SL) 56.30
    HH Streak (Zim) 55.58
    RJ Shastri (India) 54.67
    W Rhodes (Eng) 52.09
    TE Bailey (Eng) 51.38
    FJ Titmus (Eng) 51.16
    Abdul Razzaq (Pak) 50.35
    Intikhab Alam (Pak) 48.88
    N Boje (SA) 48.49
    AF Giles (Eng) 47.37
    JE Emburey (Eng) 45.50
    JG Bracewell (NZ) 45.30
    R Illingworth (Eng) 43.24


    Shakib WAG. Mankad is also shown to be a very valuable player.

    It would be interesting to factor in a peak period of 50 matches, which should move Botham up a bit.
    Greatest Ever Test XI: JB Hobbs, L Hutton, DG Bradman (c), IVA Richards, BC Lara, GS Sobers, AC Gilchrist (wk), Imran Khan, RJ Hadlee, MD Marshall, SK Warne 12th man: M Muralitharan


    Favorite XI: WG Grace, VT Trumper, IVA Richards, DCS Compton, FMM Worrell (c), AC Gilchrist (wk), CL Cairns, SK Warne, FS Trueman, SE Bond, T Richardson 12th man: H Larwood

    "Neither of them will have an international cricket acareer past 2016."
    Brocky on Martin Guptill and Ish Sodhi. 20/11/2014.

  12. #1587
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    I like this rating
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  13. #1588
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    Irfan Pathan

  14. #1589
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    Not attempting to pre-empt Monk here but my All Time New Zealand XI is as follows

    Bert Sutcliffe
    Glenn Turner
    Stewie Dempster
    Martin Crowe
    Stephen Flerming (*)
    Chris Cairns
    Daniel Vettori
    Richard Hadlee
    Ian Smith (+)
    Shane Bond
    Jack Cowie

    12th Man: John R Reid

  15. #1590
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Agreed with Michael's team, more or less



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