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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #136
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Only saving grace for Walters is that England were better in his time. Waugh got to feast on some pretty ordinary attacks throughout most of his career in England, usually after a strong platform had been set.

    Of course, he still played some memorable knocks, his twin tons in Manchester in particular.
    I'm sure that the 'ordinary attacks' helped Waugh. But by the same token an average of 25 over 30 innings indicates that Walters had technical deficiencies under English conditions. That is, I don't think that he coped well with 'side-ways movement' and lower bounce.

    After all, not every Australian batsman from the 1960s-70s ended up with an average of only 25 after playing in England.

  2. #137
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Would be interesting (to me, at least) to compare the strengths of each test nation's 2nd XI.

    I'd imagine the WIs would be very strong. If we basically agree on the following as their ATG team:

    1. G. Greenidge
    2. C. Hunte
    3. G. Headley
    4. V. Richards
    5. B. Lara
    6. G. Sobers
    7. J. Dujon
    8. M. Marshall
    9. C. Ambrose
    10. M. Holding
    11. L. Gibbs

    Their 2nd XI might be:

    1. R. Fredericks
    2. D. Haynes
    3. F. Worrell
    4. E. Weekes
    5. R. Kanhai/ Kallicharan/Rowe
    6. C. Lloyd
    7. C. Walcott
    8. A. Roberts
    9. J. Garner
    10. W. Hall/ C.Walsh/ I. Bishop/ C. Croft
    11. S. Ramadhin



    That second XI is brutal, and I think it'd give England's and Australia's first XIs a run for their money.
    Last edited by Monk; 09-09-2012 at 08:45 PM.

  3. #138
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Very good point. But how old is old? The fact remains, a good fast bowler can utilise the ball for longer than a spin bowler and therefore be more effective during the allotted 90 overs. Especially if he can Reverse Swing an old ball.

    Spin bowlers also tend to 'win' Test matches on the 5th Day when the pitch is worn. But that assumes the Test match reaches the 5th Day. With a trio of top notch quicks the Test match is sometimes won within 4 days thus making the spin bowler little more than a passenger.

    Having said all that, a quality spin bowler is a must if you are lucky enough to have one to select. And should be included in any ATG team.

    Two spinners in an ATG team though? That's an interesting question.
    I have no hesitation in including both O'Reilly and Warne in my Australian XI as I have Miller as the third quick, and he is able to bat in the middle order. Miller is a genuine opening bowler. McGrath, Lillee, Miller, O'Reilly and Warne is a great attack. I do feel strongly that ATG teams need five legitimate bowlers, or at very least a 5th option that is very good. I'd also love to include a left armer, but just can't squeeze Davidson in, as I think McGrath is a slightly better bowler than him (as is Lindwall). So variety only comes in to consideration when two players are virtually of the same in ability for me.

    You're right, and on day 4 and 5, the thought of Warne and O'Reilly bowling together is something extraordinary to contemplate. The aggression, pressure and sledging/gamesmanship would be relentless.

  4. #139
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    why is Davidson not selected ahead of some of the other blokes?

    His average is outstanding
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta


  5. #140
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    how about davidson and McG as the opening bowlers? That would be a miserly opening pair if there was one I reckon?

  6. #141
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    why is Davidson not selected ahead of some of the other blokes?

    His average is outstanding
    His average is outstanding, but his strike rate is pretty poor in comparison to Lillee and McGrath (Davidson is about 62, while Lillee and McGrath are about 52).

  7. #142
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    but how much does a SR of 10 balls per wicket really matter considering that you get much cheaper wickets with Davidson than you get with Lillee and even cheaper than McG

  8. #143
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    but how much does a SR of 10 balls per wicket really matter considering that you get much cheaper wickets with Davidson than you get with Lillee and even cheaper than McG
    I guess it's more to do with the fact that if you expect him to take 3, 4 or 5 wickets per innings, it's going to take him between 5 to 9 more overs of bowling to do that than it will Lillee or McGrath. The quicker you bowl a team out, the more chance of winning a test.

  9. #144
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I'm sure that the 'ordinary attacks' helped Waugh. But by the same token an average of 25 over 30 innings indicates that Walters had technical deficiencies under English conditions. That is, I don't think that he coped well with 'side-ways movement' and lower bounce.

    After all, not every Australian batsman from the 1960s-70s ended up with an average of only 25 after playing in England.
    Yeah for sure. I had said originally that Walters was poor vs. England, but just wanted to explain one of the reasons why the gap was so large is that Waugh didn't have to face really good attacks.

    Waugh's record against West Indies, South Africa and Pakistan would have meant the most as they had the best attacks in general throughout his career.

  10. #145
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I have no hesitation in including both O'Reilly and Warne in my Australian XI as I have Miller as the third quick, and he is able to bat in the middle order. Miller is a genuine opening bowler. McGrath, Lillee, Miller, O'Reilly and Warne is a great attack. I do feel strongly that ATG teams need five legitimate bowlers, or at very least a 5th option that is very good. I'd also love to include a left armer, but just can't squeeze Davidson in, as I think McGrath is a slightly better bowler than him (as is Lindwall). So variety only comes in to consideration when two players are virtually of the same in ability for me.

    You're right, and on day 4 and 5, the thought of Warne and O'Reilly bowling together is something extraordinary to contemplate. The aggression, pressure and sledging/gamesmanship would be relentless.
    I agree. The extraordinary quality of Warne and O'Reilly make them (almost) a must - especially with Miller in the team. Three top class quicks should be enough to breakdown most batting orders;

    01. Simpson
    02. Lawry
    03. Bradman*
    04. G. Chappell
    05. Miller
    06. Border
    07. Gilchrist+
    08. Warne
    09. Lillee
    10. O'Reilly
    11. McGrath

    Davidson-Lillee-McGrath are interchangeable as I can't split them.

    Changed my England team a little bit - again.

    01. Hobbs
    02. Hutton
    03. Hammond
    04. Compton
    05. Leyland
    06. May*
    07. Knott+
    08. Larwood
    09. Snow
    10. Trueman
    11. Barnes

    Leyland makes the team by virtue of being England's greatest left-hander.

    Compton replaces Barrington as the middle-order needs an attacking strokemaker. A combo of Barrington-Leyland-May might get bogged down.

  11. #146
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Australia
    1. Victor Trumper
    2. Bob Simpson
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Greg Chappell
    5. Keith Miller*
    6. Allan Border
    7. Don Tallon †
    8. Alan Davidson
    9. Shane Warne
    10. Bill O'Reilly
    11. Glenn McGrath

    12. Ray Lindwall
    Oh for a strong arm and a walking stick

  12. #147
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Australia
    1. Victor Trumper
    2. Bob Simpson
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Greg Chappell
    5. Keith Miller*
    6. Allan Border
    7. Don Tallon
    8. Alan Davidson
    9. Shane Warne
    10. Bill O'Reilly
    11. Glenn McGrath

    12. Ray Lindwall
    Davo over Lillee?

  13. #148
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Davo over Lillee?
    If you make the decision that a left-armer is essential to the bowling attack because of the variety it brings - especially if you have the greatest, or second greatest left-arm quick of all time available for selection - then the question becomes McGrath V Lillee? Not Davidson V Lillee or McGrath?

    Also, Davidson's batting skills become more important since Jager has Tallon as his keeper. Losing Gilchrist makes the tail look fragile.
    Last edited by watson; 09-09-2012 at 11:53 PM.

  14. #149
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Aus XI:

    Bob Simpson | Bill Ponsford | Don Bradman * | Ricky Ponting | Greg Chappell | Adam Gilchrist + | Keith Miller | Allan Davidson | Shane Warne | Dennis Lillee | Glenn McGrath

    It's little harsh to leave out Bill O'Reilly, but not sure if we really need two spinners in Aus XI.

  15. #150
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ankitj View Post
    Aus XI:

    Bob Simpson | Bill Ponsford | Don Bradman * | Ricky Ponting | Greg Chappell | Adam Gilchrist + | Keith Miller | Allan Davidson | Shane Warne | Dennis Lillee | Glenn McGrath

    It's little harsh to leave out Bill O'Reilly, but not sure if we really need two spinners in Aus XI.
    pretty fantastic side this one

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