The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[watson]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

Only saving grace for Walters is that England were better in his time. Waugh got to feast on some pretty ordinary attacks throughout most of his career in England, usually after a strong platform had been set.

Of course, he still played some memorable knocks, his twin tons in Manchester in particular.

I'm sure that the 'ordinary attacks' helped Waugh. But by the same token an average of 25 over 30 innings indicates that Walters had technical deficiencies under English conditions. That is, I don't think that he coped well with 'side-ways movement' and lower bounce.

After all, not every Australian batsman from the 1960s-70s ended up with an average of only 25 after playing in England.

[Monk]

Would be interesting (to me, at least) to compare the strengths of each test nation's 2nd XI.

I'd imagine the WIs would be very strong. If we basically agree on the following as their ATG team:

1. G. Greenidge
2. C. Hunte
3. G. Headley
4. V. Richards
5. B. Lara
6. G. Sobers
7. J. Dujon
8. M. Marshall
9. C. Ambrose
10. M. Holding
11. L. Gibbs

Their 2nd XI might be:

1. R. Fredericks
2. D. Haynes
3. F. Worrell
4. E. Weekes
5. R. Kanhai/ Kallicharan/Rowe
6. C. Lloyd
7. C. Walcott
8. A. Roberts
9. J. Garner
10. W. Hall/ C.Walsh/ I. Bishop/ C. Croft
11. S. Ramadhin


That second XI is brutal, and I think it'd give England's and Australia's first XIs a run for their money.

[Monk]

Originally Posted by watson

Very good point. But how old is old? The fact remains, a good fast bowler can utilise the ball for longer than a spin bowler and therefore be more effective during the allotted 90 overs. Especially if he can Reverse Swing an old ball.

Spin bowlers also tend to 'win' Test matches on the 5th Day when the pitch is worn. But that assumes the Test match reaches the 5th Day. With a trio of top notch quicks the Test match is sometimes won within 4 days thus making the spin bowler little more than a passenger.

Having said all that, a quality spin bowler is a must if you are lucky enough to have one to select. And should be included in any ATG team.

Two spinners in an ATG team though? That's an interesting question.

I have no hesitation in including both O'Reilly and Warne in my Australian XI as I have Miller as the third quick, and he is able to bat in the middle order. Miller is a genuine opening bowler. McGrath, Lillee, Miller, O'Reilly and Warne is a great attack. I do feel strongly that ATG teams need five legitimate bowlers, or at very least a 5th option that is very good. I'd also love to include a left armer, but just can't squeeze Davidson in, as I think McGrath is a slightly better bowler than him (as is Lindwall). So variety only comes in to consideration when two players are virtually of the same in ability for me.

You're right, and on day 4 and 5, the thought of Warne and O'Reilly bowling together is something extraordinary to contemplate. The aggression, pressure and sledging/gamesmanship would be relentless.

[smalishah84]

why is Davidson not selected ahead of some of the other blokes?

His average is outstanding

[smalishah84]

how about davidson and McG as the opening bowlers? That would be a miserly opening pair if there was one I reckon?

[Monk]

Originally Posted by smalishah84

why is Davidson not selected ahead of some of the other blokes?

His average is outstanding

His average is outstanding, but his strike rate is pretty poor in comparison to Lillee and McGrath (Davidson is about 62, while Lillee and McGrath are about 52).

[smalishah84]

but how much does a SR of 10 balls per wicket really matter considering that you get much cheaper wickets with Davidson than you get with Lillee and even cheaper than McG

[Monk]

Originally Posted by smalishah84

but how much does a SR of 10 balls per wicket really matter considering that you get much cheaper wickets with Davidson than you get with Lillee and even cheaper than McG

I guess it's more to do with the fact that if you expect him to take 3, 4 or 5 wickets per innings, it's going to take him between 5 to 9 more overs of bowling to do that than it will Lillee or McGrath. The quicker you bowl a team out, the more chance of winning a test.

[NUFAN]

Originally Posted by watson

I'm sure that the 'ordinary attacks' helped Waugh. But by the same token an average of 25 over 30 innings indicates that Walters had technical deficiencies under English conditions. That is, I don't think that he coped well with 'side-ways movement' and lower bounce.

After all, not every Australian batsman from the 1960s-70s ended up with an average of only 25 after playing in England.

Yeah for sure. I had said originally that Walters was poor vs. England, but just wanted to explain one of the reasons why the gap was so large is that Waugh didn't have to face really good attacks.

Waugh's record against West Indies, South Africa and Pakistan would have meant the most as they had the best attacks in general throughout his career.

[watson]

Originally Posted by Monk

I have no hesitation in including both O'Reilly and Warne in my Australian XI as I have Miller as the third quick, and he is able to bat in the middle order. Miller is a genuine opening bowler. McGrath, Lillee, Miller, O'Reilly and Warne is a great attack. I do feel strongly that ATG teams need five legitimate bowlers, or at very least a 5th option that is very good. I'd also love to include a left armer, but just can't squeeze Davidson in, as I think McGrath is a slightly better bowler than him (as is Lindwall). So variety only comes in to consideration when two players are virtually of the same in ability for me.

You're right, and on day 4 and 5, the thought of Warne and O'Reilly bowling together is something extraordinary to contemplate. The aggression, pressure and sledging/gamesmanship would be relentless.

I agree. The extraordinary quality of Warne and O'Reilly make them (almost) a must - especially with Miller in the team. Three top class quicks should be enough to breakdown most batting orders;

01. Simpson
02. Lawry
03. Bradman*
04. G. Chappell
05. Miller
06. Border
07. Gilchrist+
08. Warne
09. Lillee
10. O'Reilly
11. McGrath

Davidson-Lillee-McGrath are interchangeable as I can't split them.

Changed my England team a little bit - again.

01. Hobbs
02. Hutton
03. Hammond
04. Compton
05. Leyland
06. May*
07. Knott+
08. Larwood
09. Snow
10. Trueman
11. Barnes

Leyland makes the team by virtue of being England's greatest left-hander.

Compton replaces Barrington as the middle-order needs an attacking strokemaker. A combo of Barrington-Leyland-May might get bogged down.

[Jager]

Australia
1. Victor Trumper
2. Bob Simpson
3. Don Bradman
4. Greg Chappell
5. Keith Miller*
6. Allan Border
7. Don Tallon †
8. Alan Davidson
9. Shane Warne
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Glenn McGrath

12. Ray Lindwall

[Monk]

Originally Posted by Jager

Australia
1. Victor Trumper
2. Bob Simpson
3. Don Bradman
4. Greg Chappell
5. Keith Miller*
6. Allan Border
7. Don Tallon †
8. Alan Davidson
9. Shane Warne
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Glenn McGrath

12. Ray Lindwall

Davo over Lillee?

[watson]

Originally Posted by Monk

Davo over Lillee?

If you make the decision that a left-armer is essential to the bowling attack because of the variety it brings - especially if you have the greatest, or second greatest left-arm quick of all time available for selection - then the question becomes McGrath V Lillee? Not Davidson V Lillee or McGrath?

Also, Davidson's batting skills become more important since Jager has Tallon as his keeper. Losing Gilchrist makes the tail look fragile.

[8ankitj]

Aus XI:

Bob Simpson | Bill Ponsford | Don Bradman * | Ricky Ponting | Greg Chappell | Adam Gilchrist + | Keith Miller | Allan Davidson | Shane Warne | Dennis Lillee | Glenn McGrath

It's little harsh to leave out Bill O'Reilly, but not sure if we really need two spinners in Aus XI.

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by 8ankitj

Aus XI:

Bob Simpson | Bill Ponsford | Don Bradman * | Ricky Ponting | Greg Chappell | Adam Gilchrist + | Keith Miller | Allan Davidson | Shane Warne | Dennis Lillee | Glenn McGrath

It's little harsh to leave out Bill O'Reilly, but not sure if we really need two spinners in Aus XI.

pretty fantastic side this one