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Clash of the titans, Dhoni vs Bevan

Who was the better batsman


  • Total voters
    69

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Dhoni's slowed down starts really hurt more in T20's rather than ODI's.

He still even after a slow start has enough time to pace himself in ODI's and does it pretty well.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Code:
[B]Dismissal	WIN/TIE	LOSS
[/B]
Not Dismissed	20	0
Dismissed	13	24
This is an astounding figure for a man who is a finisher par excellence. One wonders if this is a mere statistical oddity . . .

To be continued . . .
One can go into more statistics, particularly with respect to batting first to see Dhoni's role as a builder of challenge/setter of challenging targets but I suggest for the question at hand we have enough to state with minor reservations that

1. Dhoni has changed his batting tactics since taking over captaincy and taken on a more sedate role with an emphasis on seeing things through rather than blasting attacks into oblivion.

2. Consequently, his sixes have dried up, the run rate has dropped, particularly in the first half to two thirds of his innings.

3. His record shows that if he stays at the crease in the end, India ALWAYS wins in a chase. This might be interpreted by some as not wanting to stay till the end if the cause seems hopeless/lost. This is supported by his massively reduced sixes and yet many dismissals while trying to hit sixes.

4. There is no doubt, however, that he has played the role of a finisher with great merit but is it possible that India is not getting the best out of this incredible man.

I think the answer to the last question is yes. And the reason is . . . .

- Dhoni's new batting avatar - post his elevation to captaincy - is ideal for the one day format for someone batting higher up in the batting order. If Sachin had not taken on the role of opener (thank God) I can visualise him batting like this through an Indian innings at number three (or four) for his entire career and I would like to believe that Sachin would have been played a different role than the swashbuckler the opening slot made him in odi's. I would like to believe that Sachin would have been there at the end of many more famous Indian wins if he had batted lower down but that did not happen and what happened is glorious history as well. But we digress . . .

He should bat at three (preferably) but no lower than four

So Dhoni's current tactics are best for someone batting at number three or at four a la Mike Hussey. Hussey batted at 4,5 and 6 and his stats are best at four and then at five. As can be seen below Dhoni too has better figures higher up. Even Bevan has 86 innings at numbers 4 and five against 87 at number 6. Bevan, Dhoni batted lower largely because of the wealth of talent India had at the top with Sehwag, Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly and even Laxman fighting for the top five spots besides youngsters like Yuvraj. Yet, every time Dhoni has batted higher up he has produced better results as can be seen below . . .

Here is Dhoni's record at the five positions where he has batted for 185 of his 188 odi innings

Code:
[B]Batting Position	 Inns	 50s	 100s	 Runs	 Avg	I/50	I/100[/B]

At nos 3 and 4   	34	15	3	1903	76	2	11.0
At no 5              	46	9	3	1873	55	5	15.0
At nos 6 and 7   	103	21	1	2983	42	5	103.0
The figures are blindingly illuminating.

  • His average is 81 % higher at nos 3 an4 than at 6 and 7 - inspite of the chance of remaining not out lower down the order)
  • He has scored only 1 of his 7 centuries at nos 6 and 7
  • He gets a hundred once every 11 innings at 3 and 4 and once every 103 innings at 6 and 7 (understandable but still glaring and important stat.
  • He gets an amazing fifty every SECOND innings at 3 and 4 !! It is interesting to note that Tendulkar gets one every 4.5 innings as opener !!!

I have nothing more to add to this.

PS Now that only Sehwag and Sachin are left and the latter not for too many games I guess, the skipper should no longer hesitate to move to the top of that middle order and show us the next and, perhaps, the most exciting side of the full potential of this remarkable cricketer. I think the best of Dhoni could be ahead of us and only he himself, as skipper, stands between us and that vision.

If, he feels, the burden as keeper is too much the answer is simple. Give up the gloves. Dhoni the batsman is far far more valuable to India than Dhoni the keeper and, with apologies to those for who he is the second cricketing God, he is a modest keeper. His legacy will be his captaincy and his batting and I suggest both will prosper if he takes the plunge and hands over the gloves to a youngster. There are many who are better than him behind the stumps and good enough to bat for India at number seven. Whereas he is far too good to be wasted anywhere near that spot.
 
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smash84

The Tiger King
Who had great ODI bowlers during Bevan's career? WI(Walsh/Ambrose), SA(Donald/Pollck), Pak(Akram/Younis). Ran a search in statsguru using those parameters and Bevan was freaking awesome in the games involving all those bowlers and averages 50+. I thought there would be a significant drop in his average but there wasn't.

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
yep, Bevan was freaking awesome even against top quality attacks
 

smash84

The Tiger King
@SJS....dude, you do know how to do an indepth analysis....

honestly, I think you should apply for Rajesh's position on cricinfo
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Small correction - Mussey isn't a three. For as long as I can remember (certainly in the last five-six years), Mussey has always batted behind both Ponting and Clarke (and Symonds, when he was there).
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Small correction - Mussey isn't a three. For as long as I can remember (certainly in the last five-six years), Mussey has always batted behind both Ponting and Clarke (and Symonds, when he was there).
You are right. He has hardly batted at three. Mostly at 4 and 5 - 69 times and then at number 6 - 63 times. Three is wrong. He batted there just twice.
 

Uppercut

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Takes to long to get into fifth gear

Here are Dhoni's stats sorted by size of innings. Ideally one should break the longer innings into the slow phase and the final onslaught but that is too much work so this will have to do :o(

Code:
[B]Runs 	St Rt[/B]

10 and below	50
11 to 25	55
26 to 40	72
41 plus      	85
That needs no comments. If one could break up all the innings into their below 10, 11-25 etc components, this difference would be more stark with the last bit being in three figures I am sure . So the fact that Dhoni is really starting slow and hoping to make up. Normally for a batsman in the upper middle order, this would have been a perfectly legitimate tactic. Someone like, say, M Hussey would be expected to often come and be the backbone of the innings from a modest start and build it to slowly increase the tempo with a more clear and less risky road map. The difference with Dhoni is that he bats in the lower middle order most of the time and, therefore, this can backfire leaving too little time to do the job, and, often times, too little manpower with credentials to make a fist of it.
Could you do the same analysis for (e.g.) Bevan? It's pretty normal to start an innings slowly so I don't really know what to make of this stat without context.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Tendulkar (or someone else when he's resting)
Sehwag
Kohli
Dhoni
Yuvraj (when fit)
Raina

Bloody awesome order, and the batting side looks well balanced, with Raina and Yuvraj able to go nuts straight away, or build an innings.

I think Dhoni at 4 also, hopefully, will give him some more rest time when chasing, and let him switch off for at least a little longer, rather than being next in straight away.

I mean, for all we know Dhoni and the brains trust may already be aware of the fact that he's suited further up the order, but they just don't want to over-burden him; he's been playing an absolute mountain of cricket.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Tendulkar (or someone else when he's resting)
Sehwag
Kohli
Dhoni
Yuvraj (when fit)
Raina

Bloody awesome order, and the batting side looks well balanced, with Raina and Yuvraj able to go nuts straight away, or build an innings.

I think Dhoni at 4 also, hopefully, will give him some more rest time when chasing, and let him switch off for at least a little longer, rather than being next in straight away.

I mean, for all we know Dhoni and the brains trust may already be aware of the fact that he's suited further up the order, but they just don't want to over-burden him; he's been playing an absolute mountain of cricket.
I think that's quite likely. India are generally quite fluid with their batting anyway, a lot of Dhoni's innings at 3 or 4 came when he moved himself up thinking (usually correctly, it seems) that the situation was perfect for him.

I would worry about him batting 3 or 4 outside the subcontinent because he's so much more likely to be facing high-quality fast bowling. But I think generally in ODIs you want your best players in as soon as possible and there's no doubt Dhoni is one of their best players.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
[*]He gets an amazing fifty every SECOND innings at 3 and 4 !! It is interesting to note that Tendulkar gets one every 4.5 innings as opener !!!
I think that's the most amazing piece of stat. I know small sample and he can't maintain that if plays many knocks at those positions. But it still shows that he can be even better than he has been so far of he bats up.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Could you do the same analysis for (e.g.) Bevan? It's pretty normal to start an innings slowly so I don't really know what to make of this stat without context.
Hi

No my analysis had nothing to do with Bevan or comparing him with Dhoni. It was about the transformation in Dhoni's batting from his pre captaincy days to his time as captain. Here the comparative figures for strike rate across different size innings are glaring. Have a look

Code:
[B]Score        	As keeper	As captain[/B]

10 and below	42             	50
11 to 25	74             	55
26 to 40	108           	72
41 plus      	105           	85
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Tendulkar (or someone else when he's resting)
Sehwag
Kohli
Dhoni
Yuvraj (when fit)
Raina

Bloody awesome order, and the batting side looks well balanced, with Raina and Yuvraj able to go nuts straight away, or build an innings.

I think Dhoni at 4 also, hopefully, will give him some more rest time when chasing, and let him switch off for at least a little longer, rather than being next in straight away.

I mean, for all we know Dhoni and the brains trust may already be aware of the fact that he's suited further up the order, but they just don't want to over-burden him; he's been playing an absolute mountain of cricket.
Yes he is over stretched. Thats why he should give up the big gloves.

The batting line up is still pretty good

Tendulkar
Sehwag
Kohli
Dhoni
Gambhir
Yuvraj
Raina
Rohit Sharma (He is still our best bet after Kohli to take up after the fab four)

This is a fantastic pool of batsmen to choose from

I do not agree that we do not have an all rounder. If Ashwin is not an all rounder then we have never had one barring Kapil. The guy is not a replacement for Harbhajan as far as the batting order goes. If handled well he could bat for India in Tests at number six. He is very good and almost as impressive with the bat as he is with the ball. The skipper needs to trust him and show the confidence in his batting that it deserves, As on date he should never bat below seven. If we do not need to go and have a blast, I would send him to bat before Raina if it was a test match and the faster bowlers were letting fly.

Add him to six/seven batsmen from above and you can then choose another three or four bowlers. It is here, with the medium pacers, that the Indian selectors have shown them to be most fickle. Yes there have been injuries but the way we get a new ball bowler, proclaim him as the next great thing after Srinath and then drop him to go to the next is inexplicable.

Zaheer is well past his use by date and it is sad to see this man being now made to do a job he is increasingly looking unable to shoulder. He deserves a more dignified farewell than he seems to be headed for. I hope he breaks down before he is manhandled by batsmen he would have toyed with three years ago.

His list of partners and replacements is long and unsettled. Since 2009, India has opened with 14 different new ball bowlers. Even if you take only 2011 and 2012 we have used 12 different new ball bowlers and I am not counting the spinners who may have been used on the odd occasion.

This is ridiculous. And at the end of it one doesn't know who will play in the next series. And this is not just about injuries. It is just not knowing Zaheer and who ? Finally we are at a stage where Zaheer will soon be a liability and then what ?
 
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vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Geez, I forgot about Gambhir! I guess he can open instead of Sachin, in about 90% of one day matches now.

If you take the gloves off Dhoni, then your keeper will probably have to bat at 7, meaning that Ashwin would be forced to play at 8. In ODI cricket I'm not sure that he has the nuances of limited overs cricket down pat to play at 6. So you're restricted to four bowlers, and the top 6 (Yuvraj/Kohli/Raina) to make up a bowler. Mind you, it's the system that India generally use, and it's suited them well, but a Raina/Rohit is certainly more worrying for the opposition than a Parthiv Patel or whoever the A keeper is.
 
Last edited:

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Geez, I forgot about Gambhir! I guess he can open instead of Sachin, in about 90% of one day matches now.

If you take the gloves off Dhoni, then your keeper will probably have to bat at 7, meaning that Ashwin would be forced to play at 8. In ODI cricket I'm not sure that he has the nuances of limited overs cricket down pat to play at 6. So you're restricted to four bowlers, and the top 6 (Yuvraj/Kohli/Raina) to make up a bowler. Mind you, it's the system that India generally use, and it's suited them well, but a Raina/Rohit is certainly more worrying for the opposition than a Parthiv Patel or whoever the A keeper is.
Unless it is Parthiv, which is unlikely for he is out of favour as a keeper) most others could bat below Ashwin. Ashwin has a pretty decent record.

In tests :
  • - He averages just fraction under 40.
  • - In his eight Test matches so far he has a hundred, a sixty, four scores in the thirties and another in the 20's.
  • - His 103 against Windies came in just 118 balls with 15 boundaries and two sixes! He was the top scorer for India in the innings.
  • - His 62 against Australia in just 76 deliveries and contained 9 boundaries and a six.
  • - In 12 Test innings (half of them against Australia, only three times has he been dismissed under 20.
  • - His overall Test strike rate is 73 + per 100 balls

This guy is a stroke player !

In ODI's
Clearly he hardly gets to bat and when he does it is ro slog a few balls. His record shows 1n average of 18 odd at a strike rate of 86+

Only 8 times in his 40 odi's he got to bat for a dozen balls or more. In these eight innings he averages 35.2 with a strike rate of 86 again. But for an innings of 31 in 64 balls against Windies where coming in after six wickets had fallen for just over 100 (chasing 260) he supported Rohit in a big stand playing second fiddle and taking India close to what should have been a memorable win but for Rohit's run out - but for this innings he would have been striking in three digits !

This guy can bat and in both forms of the game but he does not bat like a rustic a la Harbhajan. He plays beautiful authentic strokes and yet has enough strokes all round the wicket to have such high strike rates in both forms. He needs to be sent higher up in both. This is my very strong conviction. I know this is difficult for even with his awesome bowling figures in Tests so far there are so many in the establishment still batting for Harbhajan . . . including former Test captains who do not miss any opportunity on air to remind the public how great a bowler Bhajjji is . . . except that it should be "was"

:o)

Dhoni was very reluctant to play Ashwin and then to bowl him but this boy has quietly been producing results. Unfortunately quiet results don't work in India where we are used to every thing being shouted from the roof tops for people to take notice and no one from the media has yet found Ashwin glamorous enough to do that for him and the public just knows he is there. The boy is on the verge of the fastest fifty wickets in Tests and yet if he were dropped tomorrow, trust me there would be no headlines.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Saha's far and away the #2 wicketkeeper, and he's too good a bat to play at 8.

1. Sehwag
2. Gambhir
3. Kohli
4. Dhoni
5. Yuvraj
6. Saha +
7. Ashwin
8. Pathan
9. ???
10. Yadav
11. Ojha

Not sure who to put at 9. Could also go with a more traditional line-up by slotting Raina in at 5 and dropping everyone down a slot - Yuvraj and Raina are both good enough bowlers to get through 10 between them.

Slightly OT, but what's the go with Sachin Rana? I recall hearing something about him being pretty decent a couple of years ago, but I've heard nothing since. His FC stats aren't bad on the surface.
 

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