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Thread: The Case for Kallis

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    Their records against McGrath and Warne.
    Meh, so what? Every player no matter how great has a flaw in their record part from maybe Bradman. Tendulkar has a pretty poor record against Donald and Pollock and Lara too against Waqar and Wasim.

  2. #92
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Being a 5 day game, I'd be amazed if a career strike rate (bearing in mind it is just that, and will vary between games and has actually gone up over the years) of 46 or so lead to South Africa missing out on victories. I can understand people finding him boring, but you can't deny his effectiveness.
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    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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  3. #93
    International Vice-Captain Contra's Avatar
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    I hate Kallis, dude's been a beast against India over the last few years, and he's been getting 100's almost at will over the last few years, He has done enough to pass Ponting for me, that is of course if he doesn't start failing over the next few years.

    I will add however, that Kallis hasn't faced the best bowling attacks as often as the likes of Dravid, Tendulkar and Ponting. I think that could partly be the reason why he is still rated below despite the higher average.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contra View Post
    I will add however, that Kallis hasn't faced the best bowling attacks as often as the likes of Dravid, Tendulkar and Ponting. I think that could partly be the reason why he is still rated below despite the higher average.
    He has been playing about just as long as Ponting and even longer than Dravid so I find that hard to believe. On top of that he has done well in spinning conditions in India and Sri Lanka where the other 2 has failed. Tendulkar maybe but I don't believe that argument about 00's having weaker bowling attacks at all I just believe that it was either better batsmen or flatter decks, more towards the first. The only reason to rate Tendulkar above him is really his longevity.

    Whatever the case there is now way you can rate Dravid above him any way you look at it if him not being entertaining is the reason you don't rate him highly.
    Last edited by Inferno; 26-11-2012 at 03:44 PM.


  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Well I rate match winners higher.

    Not a fan of Sehwag though, more of a FTB.
    Kallis is some cricketer isn't he? I mean he isn't a match winner but has won the most man of the match awards by a test cricketer.

  6. #96
    International Vice-Captain centurymaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contra View Post
    I will add however, that Kallis hasn't faced the best bowling attacks as often as the likes of Dravid, Tendulkar and Ponting. I think that could partly be the reason why he is still rated below despite the higher average.
    yea thats probably true.
    moreover, even in the last couple of years when he has been really solid, I don't think he has faced many good attacks (partly because he is a southafrican and they aren't many good attacks around).


    in the last two years against good attacks-


    Australia in South Africa Test Series, 2011/12

    2 tests, 58 runs , 1 fifty

    Basil D'Oliveira Trophy (South Africa in England), 2012
    3 tests, 262 runs, 1 huge ton, 0 50s

    interesting to note that he's destroyed subcontinental attacks away from subcontinent in the same period-
    7 tests, close to 1100 runs, 2 200's, 4 100's, 1 50
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  7. #97
    International Vice-Captain Contra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
    He has been playing about just as long as Ponting and even longer than Dravid so I find that hard to believe. On top of that he has done well in spinning conditions in India and Sri Lanka where the other 2 has failed. Tendulkar maybe but I don't believe that argument about 00's having weaker bowling attacks at all I just believe that it was either better batsmen or flatter decks, more towards latter. The only reason to rate Tendulkar above him is really his longevity.

    Whatever the case there is now way you can rate Dravid above him any way you look at it if him not being entertaining is the reason you don't rate him highly.
    I was primarily talking about the last couple of years, not throughout their whole careers. I meant that the other three batsmen have faced Steyn, Morkel and co a fair bit while Kallis hasn't. And yeah I rate him above Dravid as well, but again it's all relative, if he goes to have a slump in the future and his average drops 2-3 runs then it again becomes debatable as to who is the better of the three.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by centurymaker View Post
    yea thats probably true.
    moreover, even in the last couple of years when he has been really solid, I don't think he has faced many good attacks (partly because he is a southafrican and they aren't many good attacks around).


    in the last two years against good attacks-


    Australia in South Africa Test Series, 2011/12

    2 tests, 58 runs , 1 fifty

    Basil D'Oliveira Trophy (South Africa in England), 2012
    3 tests, 262 runs, 1 huge ton, 0 50s

    interesting to note that he's destroyed subcontinental attacks away from subcontinent in the same period-
    7 tests, close to 1100 runs, 2 200's, 4 100's, 1 50
    So are we pretending that 147 and 49 he scored against Australia the last test didn't happen or what?

    He has done well against the same English and Australian attacks that Ponting, Tendulkar, Dravid and the rest of their teammates all failed against. Not even to mention he kind of got hard done by with 2 decision at Lords against England (happens to everyone and such and such). Dravid did well in England but was equally worse in Australia. Plus its not as if Kallis was a mug before these last 2 years either. Was averaging 55 before the Indian series I believe.

    And everybody gets easy runs against easy attacks on home tracks too. The last time Tendulkar had a good series since the world cup was against WI in Indian tracks. Ponting had that one against Indian at home for like the first time since early 2010 I believe.
    Last edited by Inferno; 25-11-2012 at 09:15 PM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
    So are we pretending that 147 and 49 he scored against Australia the last test didn't happen or what?

    He has done well against the same English and Australian attacks that Ponting, Tendulkar, Dravid and the rest of their teammates all failed against. Not even to mention he kind of got hard done by with 2 decision at Lords against England (happens to everyone and such and such). Dravid did well in England but was equally worse in Australia. Plus its not as if Kallis was a mug before these last 2 years either. Was averaging 55 before the Indian series I believe.

    And everybody gets easy runs against easy attacks on home tracks too. The last time Tendulkar had a good series since the world cup was against WI in Indian tracks. Ponting had that one against Indian at home for like the first time since early 2010 I believe.
    2011/12 not 2012/13. I was referring to last year's series
    I havent yet included the current series.
    kallis had a terrible 2008..btw (he was looking like he was in a decline)
    Since you are conveniently highlighting decisions going against him, I might as well point out that he was lucky to get a 100 at gabba after being caught off a marginal no-ball much earlier. And this match australia's attack has been depleted...(this is at best an ok attack atm without the leading bowler pattison).
    he was lucky to get his 2 tons against pakistan too. he was caught plumb both times. I can go on.... individual performances in cricket are heavily reliant on luck!!!
    He has proven nothing new. we all know he is a great great batsman who has had a relatively easier time.

    BTW dravid, tendulkar were 38/39 when they faced aus & eng overseas.
    kallis was 36 when he faced eng/ aus last year.
    We'll see how he goes in a year or two at a similar age.
    actually tendulkar is more like a 42 year old now given how long he has been playing. seriously needs to retire asap

    The last time tendukar had a great series in terms of numbers was against southafrica, not west indies.
    his batting was merely ok in england, was ok against west indies, and good against australia until the series was lost. since then he's been rubbish
    Dravid was excellent in Eng, good against west indies, clueless in aus.
    Ponting however has not done well or looked good for some time against good bowlers..
    Last edited by centurymaker; 25-11-2012 at 09:51 PM.

  10. #100
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    I can understand that every cricketer no matter how great has weaknesses and you can find genuine criticism against anyone but pure dumb points like "Kallis bats selfishly" is just taking the piss.. This man battled such tremendous pain in order to save South Africa a test match against India 2 years ago..he batted twice in the current test match at the cost of aggravating his injury in order to save his team the test match..if that's being selfish..hail selfish players.

    The one thing about Kallis which I have observed over the years is that he has improved tremendously over the years..he has changed his game and improved his skills, a hallmark of a truly great sportsman..there was a time when Kallis seemed to score those big hundreds against the Mervyn Dillons of the world and went AWOL against the McGraths or Warnes..but I think over the last few years..that has changed..He is a lot more assertive as a batsman, part of it might be the influence of his IPL stint but I find that he tends to raise his hand and score that century in big games for South Africa against quality bowling attacks...as his knock in England earlier this year or the century in the first test match here in Australia suggested.

    The man now is all class!!

  11. #101
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    Kallis is the best cricketer of his era and one of the best few of all time. Perceptions of him are already starting to change and in 10 years everyone will remember him as such. I love it.

  12. #102
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    I don't think Ponting is quite in the same class as Tendulkar, Lara and Kallis.

  13. #103
    International Vice-Captain centurymaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I don't think Ponting is quite in the same class as Tendulkar, Lara and Kallis.
    why? because his reflexes have deteriorated as he has aged as a batsman, thereby not allowing him to play fast bowlers like he used to?
    come on...

    short-term memory bias is affecting people's perception of these great batsmen.

  14. #104
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    ^ Nothing new.. I was just about to say how fascinating I find this change in perspectives based on a memory that goes back perhaps 6 months.. There was a time when on this very forum you would have people argue Ponting is better than Tendulkar and Lara..and now Ponting is not in the same class as Kallis.

    For me Tendulkar, Ponting and Lara are the best batsmen of our generation very very closely followed by Kallis.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by centurymaker View Post
    why? because his reflexes have deteriorated as he has aged as a batsman, thereby not allowing him to play fast bowlers like he used to?
    come on...

    short-term memory bias is affecting people's perception of these great batsmen.
    I knew I should've added an addendum.
    No, it's not because of recent form.

    He's a great player, no doubt about that, but he had the advantage of playing most of his career in the best team of his generation. He has also never achieved the spectacular feats that Tendulkar (sheer runs, longevity), Lara (individual effort in a crap team, record breaking personal scores, stunning strokeplay) or Kallis (he has 282 wickets, ffs) have.

    These things are always going to be personal, and although he's played some bruising innings (most memorably in ODIs, for me), he just hasn't been as enchanting as the others. I actually prefer Steve Waugh.

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