The Case for Kallis

[Daemon]

how predictably boring this thread has become.

[Top_Cat]

Sounds like someone I know.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by tooextracool

The more I've watch off Kallis over the recent years, where ever you may rate him as a batsman, the more I've come to the realization that he might very well be one of the greatest cricketers ever. Whatever way you want to look at it, the guy has managed to play cricket consistently for 17+ years for South Africa as an all rounder while playing all formats of the game and still averaging over 55 with the bat in tests. It is rather miraculous how he has managed to maintain his fitness and that he is still going strong. Also, I think he is rather underrated with the bat, largely because he doesn't have the kind of demographics to support him on this forum, but also because of his style of play. There are few players who could have been brilliant irrespective of whether they played as bowler or batsman and one can only imagine how good he would have been if he gave up one form to focus on the other. I suspect that history will look back at Kallis with more fondness than he is at the moment everywhere outside South Africa.

No doubt if Kallis was Aussie, English or Indian he'd be held in higher esteem. Said it for years.

Same goes for Pollock.

[benchmark00]

Nah. Pollock's overrated on here.

[Daemon]

Originally Posted by Top_Cat

Sounds like someone I know.

I was going for that tbf

But seriously, can't have an appreciation thread without ****s ruining it by stats picking. Worst thing about cricket.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by benchmark00

Nah. Pollock's overrated on here.

Meant generally not on CW, apologies if not clear in my post. Reckon Kallis on the whole gets his due here on CW. Some may not, but on the whole people rate him higher than others general cricket fans. Reckon its the same with Polly.

Just from my experience anyway.

[Xuhaib]

the problem with Polly was he very seldom had spells where you would just sit up with your mouth open and admire the sheer brilliance of the man he just could not get the pulse racing unlike say a Flintoff or Shoaib who may have inferior records but were more likely to give you a show of brilliance. Kallis batting also has a very similar feel for most of his career.

People never had problems in giving Steyn, Donald and Rhodes (for his fielding) their share of praise so its just not a South African thing.

[unam]

Originally Posted by Xuhaib

the problem with Polly was he very seldom had spells where you would just sit up with your mouth open and admire the sheer brilliance of the man he just could not get the pulse racing unlike say a Flintoff or Shoaib who may have inferior records but were more likely to give you a show of brilliance. Kallis batting also has a very similar feel for most of his career.

People never had problems in giving Steyn, Donald and Rhodes (for his fielding) their share of praise so its just not a South African thing.

I agree with the above. For some reason South African do not get dues they deserve. Even Donald is seldom mentioned when people are talking about All-time great bowlers.

[fredfertang]

Originally Posted by unam

I agree with the above. For some reason South African do not get dues they deserve. Even Donald is seldom mentioned when people are talking about All-time great bowlers.

It does seem to go from one extreme to the other with South Africans - you're quite right about Donald, which is a little odd given that Graeme Pollock, Barry Richards and Mike Procter, particularly the latter two, are said by many on here to be overrated

[Ikki]

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

^ Nothing new.. I was just about to say how fascinating I find this change in perspectives based on a memory that goes back perhaps 6 months.. There was a time when on this very forum you would have people argue Ponting is better than Tendulkar and Lara..and now Ponting is not in the same class as Kallis.

For me Tendulkar, Ponting and Lara are the best batsmen of our generation very very closely followed by Kallis.

Agree with this.

I also think people take critique of Kallis being 'selfish' the wrong way. It's not just about his SR. Kallis for much of his career batted in a bubble. Batting however he could just to stay at the crease even if it meant his team was losing momentum - not a quantifiable thing. Contrast that with the other greats, like a Viv to make it more clear, who not only made runs but took the initiative away from the other team and allowed his partners an easier route too.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Ikki

I also think people take critique of Kallis being 'selfish' the wrong way. It's not just about his SR. Kallis for much of his career batted in a bubble. Batting however he could just to stay at the crease even if it meant his team was losing momentum - not a quantifiable thing. Contrast that with the other greats, like a Viv to make it more clear, who not only made runs but took the initiative away from the other team and allowed his partners an easier route too.

Yeah well I would bet neither his team or his partners felt it easy when Viv Richards threw his wickets away without assessing the situation of the game like we have seen Peterson do so many times.

Kallis takes the initiative away from the opposition his own way by frustrating the bowlers and making them work. There are plenty of situations where Kallis would easily be the most valuable player to the team like the SA found themselves against the last test. You would have to be brain dead to suggest Viv Richards would have been more valuable in that situation than Kallis.

Both type of players have their advantages.

[unam]

Originally Posted by Ikki

Agree with this.

I also think people take critique of Kallis being 'selfish' the wrong way. It's not just about his SR. Kallis for much of his career batted in a bubble. Batting however he could just to stay at the crease even if it meant his team was losing momentum - not a quantifiable thing. Contrast that with the other greats, like a Viv to make it more clear, who not only made runs but took the initiative away from the other team and allowed his partners an easier route too.

Any example of that? I had Kallis in same league as Ponting, Sachin and Brain Lara. If you hold Kallis record vs Australia against him then why not Sachin? Sachin averaged in low 30s in 90s against Pakistan and South Africa, the 2 best attacks of that time.

[Pup Clarke]

Actually find Kallis an attractive player to watch. His cover drive is sublime, and his clip of the legs, sometimes deliberately hit over the top, is glorious.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Xuhaib

the problem with Polly was he very seldom had spells where you would just sit up with your mouth open and admire the sheer brilliance of the man he just could not get the pulse racing unlike say a Flintoff or Shoaib who may have inferior records but were more likely to give you a show of brilliance. Kallis batting also has a very similar feel for most of his career.

People never had problems in giving Steyn, Donald and Rhodes (for his fielding) their share of praise so its just not a South African thing.

Steyn, Donald, Rhodes were great to watch though that's the point. I know people have a soft spot for players that are good to watch but there are plenty of not so good to watch players that play for countries like India, Pakistan, England, Australia that gets hyped up. And they don't have to have Kallis like career for it. Even with good looking South African players like lets say Donald you will find that they get a little less other in his league.

Flintoff or Shoaib didn't really give you a "show of brilliance" more like their bowling when they got it right looked better on the eyes than Pollock. Still doesn't change the fact that they were about 5 teirs below Pollock as a bowler. And I am not that familiar with his rating here but I can't believe there are people that would actually consider him overrated. In general I would probably say he is the most underrated ATG cricketer.

[Pup Clarke]

Pollock, in his later years, was the like the Kumble of pace bowling. Never tried variations, was as dull as a day's work to watch but still managed to get good players out quite frequently.