New Zealand doom and gloom thread

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by Flem274*

I actually think Vettori's bowling is gone for good but his batting can recover. There has been nothing to suggest 2011 wasn't anything more than a temporary dip. If he gave away being a serious bowler entirely I think he could return even better than before as a batsman who bowls a bit.

But then I am the resident fanboy of Vettori's batting.

If his bowling has gone for good then he is finished unless he makes himself available for ODIs again - he is a confidence batsman and needs to be in the groove for his batting. I also think he is a bit shy of the ball/bouncers ever since he got sconed by Amir.

[hendrix]

Vettori fix is simple.

Same as every other orthodox spin bowler: consistently bowl 15kms slower, pitch it wider of off stump and stop trying for the same old tired lbw/bowled with the arm ball. Shakib needs to do the same.

It's not going to turn him into Herath but it would give him a chance.

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by hendrix

Vettori fix is simple.

Same as every other orthodox spin bowler: consistently bowl 15kms slower, pitch it wider of off stump and stop trying for the same old tired lbw/bowled with the arm ball. Shakib needs to do the same.

It's not going to turn him into Herath but it would give him a chance.

Good to have you on board Hendrix.

Won't peeps just use their feet against him in he slows up.

I also thought his whole skill was varying his pace. So in an over he bowls some quicker some slower all with the same action.

[wellAlbidarned]

Originally Posted by hendrix

Vettori fix is simple.

Same as every other orthodox spin bowler: consistently bowl 15kms slower, pitch it wider of off stump and stop trying for the same old tired lbw/bowled with the arm ball. Shakib needs to do the same.

It's not going to turn him into Herath but it would give him a chance.

Should use a right handed guitar and string it upside-down too

[hendrix]

Originally Posted by Hurricane

Good to have you on board Hendrix.

Won't peeps just use their feet against him in he slows up.

I also thought his whole skill was varying his pace. So in an over he bowls some quicker some slower all with the same action.

Nice to be here!

I think it was one of his strengths when he was a good bowler, and he's steadily become more and more reliant on it to the point of one-dimensionality. He's become a caricature of himself.

Variations in pace is nice but when people know what to expect it's not going to be more than good economical bowling. It's something most bowlers use to keep a batsman on his toes, not as an actual strike weapon. A flat delivery is a flat delivery - it's only good in the context of many, many teasing deliveries.

i overexaggerate when I make my points. I still think he's a very good bowler, I'd just like for him to be open-minded enough to return to orthodoxy (paradox?). He certainly has enough control that making these game plan changes wouldn't be impossible in a limited time frame.

Originally Posted by wellAlbidarned

Should use a right handed guitar and string it upside-down too

Exactly!

[straw man]

Originally Posted by Bahnz

He can't really replace jeets, given how poorly Vettori has bowled of late. But if he can return to his pre-2012 batting form, he's a lock for number 6. Deserves a few chances to do so.

Yes it's perhaps getting close to the stage where Patel is a noticeably better bowler than Vettori. Suspect selectors won't see it that way though.

I'm hopeful Vettori will score some runs for ND and then for NZ. A little concerned though that as I've posted before, he doesn't want to see himself as primarily a batsman, and secondly that his batting method will no longer succeed as he gets older.

Suspect most of us would agree that Vettori would ideally bat 7 for NZ, but of course that's where the wicketkeeper typically bats. It could work if we had either:

6: Wicket-keeper who is a genuine top-6 batsman
7: Vettori
8: Bowler who will regularly contribute runs (someone like Wells if he improved his bowling sufficiently)

or

6: Batsman who can bowl well (wicket-taker, not containing bowler)
7: Vettori
8: Wicket-keeper

We don't have the other players to make either of these work right now. So it's back to the bat-6/bat-8 or even leave-out debate.

I'll be watching with interest to see how Vettori goes on return to Plunket Shield and in any warmup in South Africa. I hope he feels he has a point to prove with both bat and ball.

[Kippax]

Originally Posted by Flem274*

Looking outside the players we know, only Carl Cachopa has been putting his hand up in a big way (well Sinclair too, but its not gonna happen). He is an organised player and proficient off of the back foot but I'd like to see a video of not just his dismissals but anything that shows him up on a consistent basis, and there's no way Kippax or anyone cbf putting that together.

With the match filter this sort of stuff can be done to a degree.

Cachopa vs. Short Stuff - YouTube

Pretty sure he just got hit three times by Ellis there alone.

In fact Ellis bowls 10 of the 36 balls in the vault marked as bouncers to Carl, like he's the only one who knows.

[Scaly piscine]

Originally Posted by Kippax

With the match filter this sort of stuff can be done to a degree.

Cachopa vs. Short Stuff - YouTube

Pretty sure he just got hit three times by Ellis there alone.

In fact Ellis bowls 10 of the 36 balls in the vault marked as bouncers to Carl, like he's the only one who knows.

Looks hideous even to my untrained eye. His routine for most of them seems to be turning his head away, shortly followed by flinching, then ducks and hopes for the best. Some of them he sways out of the way of, but those are the minority.

[BeeGee]

And now for something completely different....

Watling
McCullum
Taylor (c)
Ryder
Ronchi (wk)
Flynn
Vettori
Bracewell
Southee
Boult
Gillespie/Patel/Other

[Pup Clarke]

Originally Posted by Scaly piscine

Looks hideous even to my untrained eye.

I'd be alot more worried about a guy that's basically blatently throwing than a young NZ bat not liking the short stuff.

[hendrix]

Not bad but I'm not a fan of Ronchi and would prefer Patel over Vettori.

For me, my ideal is not far off from the current team:

Brownlie
McCullum
Flynn
Taylor (C)
Ryder
Williamson*
Watling (W)
Bracewell
Southee
Boult
Patel

*IMO, all middle order batsman should be blooded at 6 and move up as the incumbents lose form/retire. People like Ponting got their start there and when you consider that players of Duminy and Prince's quality are still batting that low in the order (ignoring SA's ridiculous batting depth) it just seems the fair thing to do for a youngster's career.

Making Brownlie an opener is unlikely to happen, but I want Watling to take the gloves because we don't have enough batting depth. I think he's been a very improved keeper. You can't keep and open, so he's gotta come in at 7.

[Meridio]

Originally Posted by hendrix

Not bad but I'm not a fan of Ronchi and would prefer Patel over Vettori.

For me, my ideal is not far off from the current team:

Brownlie
McCullum
Flynn
Taylor (C)
Ryder
Williamson*
Watling (W)
Bracewell
Southee
Boult
Patel

*IMO, all middle order batsman should be blooded at 6 and move up as the incumbents lose form/retire. People like Ponting got their start there and when you consider that players of Duminy and Prince's quality are still batting that low in the order (ignoring SA's ridiculous batting depth) it just seems the fair thing to do for a youngster's career.

Making Brownlie an opener is unlikely to happen, but I want Watling to take the gloves because we don't have enough batting depth. I think he's been a very improved keeper. You can't keep and open, so he's gotta come in at 7.

Re. Ronchi - I hope we don't fall into the trap of 'he's Australian, therefore good'. If he scores runs for Wellington this season then sure, have a look at him, but being Australian is no guarantee of success in NZ. We don't need any more Cameron Merchants.

[hendrix]

I wish the best for the guy. If he's a very tidy wicketkeeper than I wouldn't mind selecting him purely on that basis, but from what i've seen of his batting, it's very limited. I don't know enough about him to know if he is a top keeper though.

I don't think much of van Wyk's keeping abilities, and I also hold him partially to blame for Taylor's loss of confidence at first slip.

McCullum was the best keeper we've had since Parore.

[BeeGee]

Originally Posted by Meridio

Re. Ronchi - I hope we don't fall into the trap of 'he's Australian, therefore good'. If he scores runs for Wellington this season then sure, have a look at him, but being Australian is no guarantee of success in NZ. We don't need any more Cameron Merchants.

My XI was an "out of left field, shake things up, let's try something different, what if" XI. In reality, I agree 100% that if Ronchi wants to play for NZ he has to earn his place by performing for Wellington.

Just as an aside, talent wise, Ronchi is in a whole different league to Cameron Merchant.

[BeeGee]

Originally Posted by hendrix

.. If he's a very tidy wicketkeeper than I wouldn't mind selecting him purely on that basis, but from what i've seen of his batting, it's very limited. I don't know enough about him to know if he is a top keeper though.

My understanding from people who have followed his career is that he has always been a very good keeper. The reason he slipped from his No. 2 Australian keeper position was a dramatic loss of batting form.

Anyhoo, it'll be interesting to see how he goes for Wellington.