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New Zealand doom and gloom thread

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
It's inexcusable to not have Wagner IMO. I know people think he's dropped off a bit, but his series averages have been pretty solid still. I don't think any of the other NZ bowlers really ever look likely on a batting favoured deck.
I think sometimes Wagner looks ordinary when the other bowlers are doing well and his intensity isn't needed as much. Always seems to do much better when the team really needs him. We needed him here.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I like all 4 bowlers a lot and individually they have good performances on roads but we should never go in with 3 bowlers who's stock ball is right arm 135kph outswing again unless one is the 5th bowler.

We need a specialist third seamer for post-Wagner and we need a real spinner.

The treatment of Wagner and Ajaz throughout their careers has been a disgrace.

Latham needs to score runs against a variety of teams or get out.

Jurgenson oversaw Boults multi-year action deterioration and now KJs morphing into Oram.

Nicholls needs to put up away from home.

Stead and David White need to step away.

But you know nothing will happen, which is what makes this so frustrating.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
I knew we were stuck with Stead until some time in 2023, but only just looked it up and it's until after the World Cup which is in October. So that's near enough 18 months more, and the chances of NZC being decisive and paying to terminate the contract early would be slim to none.
 

artvandalay

State Vice-Captain
The scariest thing from a long-term point of view was that for so long from 2014-2021, you had that feeling about the NZ team that they'd find a way to win. There was a real optimism and confidence about the way the team played. Now things are rapidly backsliding to the way they were in the 2008-2012 era (though obviously with a much better side) where the team keeps fumbling dominant positions, and the belief just looks totally absent after the opposition have a good hour of play.
You have to keep in mind rising expectations too. That period was a big improvement from what came before but you are expected to win handsomely and on a consistent basis now which is a shift in itself.
Nzl had a few express pacers who should have been knocking on the doors of the test team by now. Ferguson is the obvious one but if the money from t20 leagues is too good to give up you will need someone else to be that bowler.
 

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
I knew we were stuck with Stead until some time in 2023, but only just looked it up and it's until after the World Cup which is in October. So that's near enough 18 months more, and the chances of NZC being decisive and paying to terminate the contract early would be slim to none.
I just hope he has some sort of plan towards the World Cup. Here's the side I'd like us to have over there:

Allen
Guptill
Williamson
Conway
Mitchell
Phillips
Cleaver (wk)
Santner
Henry/Rippon
Ferguson
Boult

Here's the side I expect us to have over there:
Nicholls
Guppy
Kane
Conway
Latham (wk)
Mitchell
Macewell
Santner
Southee/Sodhi
Ferguson
Boult
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Might as well discuss ODIs seeing as how ****e we suddenly are at tests.

Wouldn't want to select a WC XI now but more interested in what roles we need to fill in the next 18 months to be a good enough team to win the thing. A few:
Guptill - will be around his 37th birthday. Still got it? Goes missing in semi-finals and finals, can we do better?
Nicholls - was the right call as fill-in opener at the last World Cup, but does he offer enough? Probably not, worth trying Allen to see if can find upside.
Sodhi and Santner - Sodhi became a meme in the T20I world cup for his pies and I wouldn't expect him to perform in a semi or final. Santner has also low-key disappointed in both the last T20I and ODI world cups. Give some other spinners game time, both pure spinners and allrounders.
Henry and Southee - the former goes well with the new ball in ODIs on non-roads, the latter has been passable in T20s. But neither are near the level of Boult and Ferguson. Can we do better?
Lower order hitters - a perenial problem though Mitchell at 6 should help. Now we've gone and dumped Neesham I don't know what will happen with him. Always need to find more hitters.

Since it's in India Latham is actually a very good option, so would put him as a certainty along with Williamson, Conway, Boult, Ferguson and probably Mitchell.
 

Moss

International Vice-Captain
Trouble with playing barely any ODIs since 2019 is we have no idea how the fringe players who were part of the previous cycle will go - thinking of Seifert, Phillips, Blundell (poor list A stats I know), Chapman, Bruce and the likes. These guys should have played a clutch of ODIs by now. I think Ajaz would be extremely useful in a World Cup in India, but good luck to him on displacing either Sodhi or Santner.
 

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Trouble with playing barely any ODIs since 2019 is we have no idea how the fringe players who were part of the previous cycle will go - thinking of Seifert, Phillips, Blundell (poor list A stats I know), Chapman, Bruce and the likes. These guys should have played a clutch of ODIs by now. I think Ajaz would be extremely useful in a World Cup in India, but good luck to him on displacing either Sodhi or Santner.
We have 3 ODIs scheduled along with the 2 tests in Pakistan (after last year's tour was called off). If it goes ahead it could almost be a trial for World Cup planning in India. For instance I think it will be handy to have a batter (batsman) who bowls some decent white ball spin. Who do you choose from Phillips, Bracewell, Chapman, and Ravindra (obviously form, injury, selectorial gut feel, team balance comes into it)?
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
It's inexcusable to not have Wagner IMO. I know people think he's dropped off a bit, but his series averages have been pretty solid still. I don't think any of the other NZ bowlers really ever look likely on a batting favoured deck.
That's true, but it seems from all reports that he's lost a yard and his effectiveness along with it. The mongrel is still there, no doubt, but even in that SA series he was getting treated with disdain by their tailenders. No bigger fan than me of Wagner, and yes we needed the variety and the knack of getting us into the contest, but I'm not sure he would've made much different on pancake pitches with a Duke that lost its air after 20 overs.

We really need to identify who our 3rd seamer is going forward. If KJ steps up to lead the attack post Southee/Boult, we need someone who can take wickets through the middle. I like the big Ship from Canterbury, although he's pretty similar to KJ. Nathan Smith is probably a 4th seamer at best right now. Sears?
 

thundaboult

International Debutant
That's true, but it seems from all reports that he's lost a yard and his effectiveness along with it. The mongrel is still there, no doubt, but even in that SA series he was getting treated with disdain by their tailenders. No bigger fan than me of Wagner, and yes we needed the variety and the knack of getting us into the contest, but I'm not sure he would've made much different on pancake pitches with a Duke that lost its air after 20 overs.

We really need to identify who our 3rd seamer is going forward. If KJ steps up to lead the attack post Southee/Boult, we need someone who can take wickets through the middle. I like the big Ship from Canterbury, although he's pretty similar to KJ. Nathan Smith is probably a 4th seamer at best right now. Sears?
its definitely sears
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
That's true, but it seems from all reports that he's lost a yard and his effectiveness along with it. The mongrel is still there, no doubt, but even in that SA series he was getting treated with disdain by their tailenders. No bigger fan than me of Wagner, and yes we needed the variety and the knack of getting us into the contest, but I'm not sure he would've made much different on pancake pitches with a Duke that lost its air after 20 overs.

We really need to identify who our 3rd seamer is going forward. If KJ steps up to lead the attack post Southee/Boult, we need someone who can take wickets through the middle. I like the big Ship from Canterbury, although he's pretty similar to KJ. Nathan Smith is probably a 4th seamer at best right now. Sears?
I think without Wagner NZ are going to need to completely rethink the make-up of the bowling attack. There's no way they'll simply find a replacement who can fill his role, to paraphrase the Warne/Bradman quote: I think we'll see another Hadlee before we see another Wagner. Wagner effectively filled the role of a quality spinner and made it possible for NZ to play 4 seamers in grassy conditions and get by with a spinning all-rounder elsewhere. Now that there's no longer someone capable of putting in 10-12 over spells with the old ball that break partnerships and halt momentum, NZ need to shift back towards a more traditionally balanced attack and that means finding a spinner and playing him consistently. Longer term Sears, Lockie, Tickner and maybe Fisher are reasonable options for first change, but their role will be dramatically different to Wagner's and the selectors will need to be conscious of this.
 

DougieRydal

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
That's true, but it seems from all reports that he's lost a yard and his effectiveness along with it. The mongrel is still there, no doubt, but even in that SA series he was getting treated with disdain by their tailenders. No bigger fan than me of Wagner, and yes we needed the variety and the knack of getting us into the contest, but I'm not sure he would've made much different on pancake pitches with a Duke that lost its air after 20 overs.

We really need to identify who our 3rd seamer is going forward. If KJ steps up to lead the attack post Southee/Boult, we need someone who can take wickets through the middle. I like the big Ship from Canterbury, although he's pretty similar to KJ. Nathan Smith is probably a 4th seamer at best right now. Sears?
I see Shipley as a potential replacement for CDG, I think he's in the genuine allrounder bracket rather than predominantly a bowler, probably the same as Smith?
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
I see Shipley as a potential replacement for CDG, I think he's in the genuine allrounder bracket rather than predominantly a bowler, probably the same as Smith?
Shipley hasn't really shown any ability to construct a big innings in FC cricket. More of a handy lower order bat who discovered by chance that his good eye and quick hands were well suited to clubbing runs in T20's. Bit like NZ's answer to Andre Russell. Smith a stronger bet, but I get the feeling from his numbers last season that he's been putting more of his energies into becoming a bowler who can serve as a decent number 8 of late.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, apart from that one missed run-out opportunity off Mitchell, Pakistan didn't put a foot wrong in the field, their bowlers were sublime in the power play and the death, and obviously Rizwan and Babar killed the chase stone dead in the first 6 overs of the innings. NZ played poorly, but Pakistan would've been very hard to beat even if NZ had played their best cricket.
 
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