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New Zealand doom and gloom thread

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
I actually think Vettori's bowling is gone for good but his batting can recover. There has been nothing to suggest 2011 wasn't anything more than a temporary dip. If he gave away being a serious bowler entirely I think he could return even better than before as a batsman who bowls a bit.

But then I am the resident fanboy of Vettori's batting.
If his bowling has gone for good then he is finished unless he makes himself available for ODIs again - he is a confidence batsman and needs to be in the groove for his batting. I also think he is a bit shy of the ball/bouncers ever since he got sconed by Amir.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Vettori fix is simple.

Same as every other orthodox spin bowler: consistently bowl 15kms slower, pitch it wider of off stump and stop trying for the same old tired lbw/bowled with the arm ball. Shakib needs to do the same.

It's not going to turn him into Herath but it would give him a chance.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Vettori fix is simple.

Same as every other orthodox spin bowler: consistently bowl 15kms slower, pitch it wider of off stump and stop trying for the same old tired lbw/bowled with the arm ball. Shakib needs to do the same.

It's not going to turn him into Herath but it would give him a chance.
Good to have you on board Hendrix.

Won't peeps just use their feet against him in he slows up.

I also thought his whole skill was varying his pace. So in an over he bowls some quicker some slower all with the same action.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Vettori fix is simple.

Same as every other orthodox spin bowler: consistently bowl 15kms slower, pitch it wider of off stump and stop trying for the same old tired lbw/bowled with the arm ball. Shakib needs to do the same.

It's not going to turn him into Herath but it would give him a chance.
Should use a right handed guitar and string it upside-down too
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Good to have you on board Hendrix.

Won't peeps just use their feet against him in he slows up.

I also thought his whole skill was varying his pace. So in an over he bowls some quicker some slower all with the same action.
Nice to be here!

I think it was one of his strengths when he was a good bowler, and he's steadily become more and more reliant on it to the point of one-dimensionality. He's become a caricature of himself.

Variations in pace is nice but when people know what to expect it's not going to be more than good economical bowling. It's something most bowlers use to keep a batsman on his toes, not as an actual strike weapon. A flat delivery is a flat delivery - it's only good in the context of many, many teasing deliveries.

i overexaggerate when I make my points. I still think he's a very good bowler, I'd just like for him to be open-minded enough to return to orthodoxy (paradox?). He certainly has enough control that making these game plan changes wouldn't be impossible in a limited time frame.

Should use a right handed guitar and string it upside-down too
:laugh:
Exactly!
 
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straw man

Hall of Fame Member
He can't really replace jeets, given how poorly Vettori has bowled of late. But if he can return to his pre-2012 batting form, he's a lock for number 6. Deserves a few chances to do so.
Yes it's perhaps getting close to the stage where Patel is a noticeably better bowler than Vettori. Suspect selectors won't see it that way though.

I'm hopeful Vettori will score some runs for ND and then for NZ. A little concerned though that as I've posted before, he doesn't want to see himself as primarily a batsman, and secondly that his batting method will no longer succeed as he gets older.

Suspect most of us would agree that Vettori would ideally bat 7 for NZ, but of course that's where the wicketkeeper typically bats. It could work if we had either:

6: Wicket-keeper who is a genuine top-6 batsman
7: Vettori
8: Bowler who will regularly contribute runs (someone like Wells if he improved his bowling sufficiently)

or

6: Batsman who can bowl well (wicket-taker, not containing bowler)
7: Vettori
8: Wicket-keeper

We don't have the other players to make either of these work right now. So it's back to the bat-6/bat-8 or even leave-out debate.

I'll be watching with interest to see how Vettori goes on return to Plunket Shield and in any warmup in South Africa. I hope he feels he has a point to prove with both bat and ball.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Looking outside the players we know, only Carl Cachopa has been putting his hand up in a big way (well Sinclair too, but its not gonna happen). He is an organised player and proficient off of the back foot but I'd like to see a video of not just his dismissals but anything that shows him up on a consistent basis, and there's no way Kippax or anyone cbf putting that together.
With the match filter this sort of stuff can be done to a degree.

Cachopa vs. Short Stuff - YouTube

Pretty sure he just got hit three times by Ellis there alone.


In fact Ellis bowls 10 of the 36 balls in the vault marked as bouncers to Carl, like he's the only one who knows.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
With the match filter this sort of stuff can be done to a degree.

Cachopa vs. Short Stuff - YouTube

Pretty sure he just got hit three times by Ellis there alone.


In fact Ellis bowls 10 of the 36 balls in the vault marked as bouncers to Carl, like he's the only one who knows.
Looks hideous even to my untrained eye. His routine for most of them seems to be turning his head away, shortly followed by flinching, then ducks and hopes for the best. Some of them he sways out of the way of, but those are the minority.
 

BeeGee

International Captain
And now for something completely different....

Watling
McCullum
Taylor (c)
Ryder
Ronchi (wk)
Flynn
Vettori
Bracewell
Southee
Boult
Gillespie/Patel/Other
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Not bad but I'm not a fan of Ronchi and would prefer Patel over Vettori.

For me, my ideal is not far off from the current team:

Brownlie
McCullum
Flynn
Taylor (C)
Ryder
Williamson*
Watling (W)
Bracewell
Southee
Boult
Patel

*IMO, all middle order batsman should be blooded at 6 and move up as the incumbents lose form/retire. People like Ponting got their start there and when you consider that players of Duminy and Prince's quality are still batting that low in the order (ignoring SA's ridiculous batting depth) it just seems the fair thing to do for a youngster's career.

Making Brownlie an opener is unlikely to happen, but I want Watling to take the gloves because we don't have enough batting depth. I think he's been a very improved keeper. You can't keep and open, so he's gotta come in at 7.
 
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Meridio

International Regular
Not bad but I'm not a fan of Ronchi and would prefer Patel over Vettori.

For me, my ideal is not far off from the current team:

Brownlie
McCullum
Flynn
Taylor (C)
Ryder
Williamson*
Watling (W)
Bracewell
Southee
Boult
Patel

*IMO, all middle order batsman should be blooded at 6 and move up as the incumbents lose form/retire. People like Ponting got their start there and when you consider that players of Duminy and Prince's quality are still batting that low in the order (ignoring SA's ridiculous batting depth) it just seems the fair thing to do for a youngster's career.

Making Brownlie an opener is unlikely to happen, but I want Watling to take the gloves because we don't have enough batting depth. I think he's been a very improved keeper. You can't keep and open, so he's gotta come in at 7.
Re. Ronchi - I hope we don't fall into the trap of 'he's Australian, therefore good'. If he scores runs for Wellington this season then sure, have a look at him, but being Australian is no guarantee of success in NZ. We don't need any more Cameron Merchants.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
I wish the best for the guy. If he's a very tidy wicketkeeper than I wouldn't mind selecting him purely on that basis, but from what i've seen of his batting, it's very limited. I don't know enough about him to know if he is a top keeper though.

I don't think much of van Wyk's keeping abilities, and I also hold him partially to blame for Taylor's loss of confidence at first slip.

McCullum was the best keeper we've had since Parore.
 

BeeGee

International Captain
Re. Ronchi - I hope we don't fall into the trap of 'he's Australian, therefore good'. If he scores runs for Wellington this season then sure, have a look at him, but being Australian is no guarantee of success in NZ. We don't need any more Cameron Merchants.
My XI was an "out of left field, shake things up, let's try something different, what if" XI. In reality, I agree 100% that if Ronchi wants to play for NZ he has to earn his place by performing for Wellington.

Just as an aside, talent wise, Ronchi is in a whole different league to Cameron Merchant.
 

BeeGee

International Captain
.. If he's a very tidy wicketkeeper than I wouldn't mind selecting him purely on that basis, but from what i've seen of his batting, it's very limited. I don't know enough about him to know if he is a top keeper though.
My understanding from people who have followed his career is that he has always been a very good keeper. The reason he slipped from his No. 2 Australian keeper position was a dramatic loss of batting form.

Anyhoo, it'll be interesting to see how he goes for Wellington.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Yo Steve, without wanting to draw you out too much on your former career*, do you know what is up with the behind closed doors attitudes and work ethics in the NZ team and how it compares to the FC sides (in general obvz, because they'll all be different)? Evidently the Black Caps infuriate FC players as much as the fans, yet a procession of batsmen, especially openers, have been inducted into the test side and shown promise only to start repeating the mistakes of everyone around them.

*lol jks, half of us are dying to know which ex-Aucland fast bowler you are:ph34r:
I can only compare it to Auckland..where Hoppy runs the show and runs it bloody well. He works his arse off, expects people to do the same and they do. The results show. Strangy has BA to do it with - his CV looks pretty handy but you won't catch any of the players giving him any praise. I guess it shows how vital a strong leader that everyone respects is. Everyone would piss blood (to steal a Mark Watson line) for Hoppy. I can only imagine the lack of harmony in the NZ fold in terms of leadership makes for a shaky environment.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Yep AWTA, despite CW making him a running joke Hopkins has always seemed like a very impressive leader tstl.

In hindsight he probably should've pinched at least one young batsman he rated with a 'come to Auckland, it'll widen your horizons, Eden Park No. 2 will be full of runs, we're a genuinely pro outfit, you'll go places' talk before this season's contracts. Not unlike like the way Mitch had a chat with him before being signed up. Maybe he can make a play for Tim Seifert before he gets too tainted with ND batting juices.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Tried to dig up some comments from all of us after Brownlie's successful debut series, where we all joked that after a good start at 6 someone would get the bright idea that he should move up to 3, following in the unsuccessful footsteps of Flynn mark 1 and Williamson. Couldn't find the comments but now some of you are suggesting it for real. Ugh, can we please not :wacko:. He's not even back in the team yet and only bats 4 or 5 for Canterbury. A weakness against spin on spinning wickets is no reason for a permanent move up the order - it's just a reason to work on playing spin.
 
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