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  • Tendulkar

    18 62.07%
  • Sanga

    11 37.93%
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Thread: How good is Sanga?

  1. #676
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    I see two small flaws with arguments made on both sides of this debate:

    1) Linking the quality of bowling faced during an innings/career to the career records of said bowlers - bowlers have good days and bad days. Bowlers rely heavily on the pitch provided to them. It's very possible to have scored a 100 against an attack of ATGs that was easier than one scored against a lesser attack, due to the ATGs having an off-rhythm day bowling on an unhelpful pitch, and the mediocre bowlers bowling at their peak in friendly conditions. This has to be taken into account when you talk about the quality of innings played by a player - an example that comes to mind is Binny's 80 odd in Trent Bridge. Down the line in statistical arguments it will look like an fifty scored in the 4th innings of a test in England against an attack of Anderson/Broad/Plunkett/Stokes and Ali. Not bad...except when you consider how dead the pitch was and how jaded Broad/Anderson were; bowling nowhere near to the quality their records suggest they can.

    Similarly the quality of bowling the English batsmen faced from the Sri Lankan bowlers was significantly better than the career records of the bowlers would suggest.

    2) Assuming overseas conditions = alien conditions - You have seaming pitches in India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, you have dry turners in England, and you have roads pretty much everywhere. Vijay's 100 in Trent Bridge will appear as a 100 scored in his first Test in England and down the line can be taken as a sign of his versatility and ability to score on foreign conditions out of home...but to all of us who saw that match we know the pitch was more Indian than anything in India even.

    These are just recent examples off the top of my head; I'm sure if you go back and do enough research you'll find many more. So instead of talking of how many tons were scored overseas or against 'ATG' bowlers, maybe focus on how many really good innings had been played - in pressure situations, against good bowling (regardless of how the bowlers' eventually careers turned out to be), in tough conditions (regardless of the country the match was played in) I think you will then have a better idea of how good a batsman really is.

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    It's not due to not being up to the mark. Sanga has done well but Murali has done better. In my opinion, Murali is simply the best off spinner in history of cricket and I can't make that kind of statement for Sanga. All this recent talks about Sanga is mainly due to his aggregate stats. I didn't hear anyone talking about Sanga being among the best of the best 5 years back. And yah, in this 5 years, he hasn't really done anything great against top bowling sides but his aggregate stats have gone up and made him a focal point. Murali's name was always up there for most of his career and that's due to him being drastically better than others. I am not saying that Sanga is not great. I am making a different point here.
    Its more to do with the fact that for the past 5+ years he's been batting at an excellent standard. I would consider centuries against South Africa and England, and half centuries in 3/4 tests against Australia to be pretty damn good performances against quality bowling. But thats just me.
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  3. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    Even with smiley after the line, that's the line you picked up to respond out of that whole post? That was to only tease you the way I tease some Sachin's fans.

    On serious note - Yes, you do need to score runs even on flat grounds but tell me honestly, do all players get chance to play on one single flat ground all the time? Not every one gets the chance but if you get an opportunity to play 20+ tests like Jaya on grounds like SSC then even Jaya is going to score heavily. Jaya has 2500+ runs at 80+ avg at SSC. He is not a batsman who can have that kind of stats in any decent track for 25 tests. You are bound to score heavily if you are a good player and play 20-30 tests on the same flat ground. Every country having one such ground and players occasionally getting few tests on those grounds in their entire career is a totally different situation that frequently playing on the same flat ground.

    About Lara. I don't remove those runs from his stats but I don't consider him great due to those innings. Anyway, my intention was not to talk about SSC here but it seems that's the only point you picked up from my post despite having a smiley after it.
    Murali's wickets on tat SSC track then must be valuable than any other wicket anywhere in the world.
    Member of the Sanga fan club. (Ugh! it took me so long to become a real fan of his)

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by viriya View Post
    Obviously there is no debate on who the best cricketer from SL was. But no one compared Murali and Sanga. This is more about who the greatest ever bowler was (since Murali is the greatest matchwinner Test cricket has ever seen quite clearly).

    Murali doing well in SSC should be considered a major positive considering how flat that track is but typically people discount his wickets at home as those from rank-turners unfairly. I think this is where smalishah is coming from if I'm not mistaken.
    It's simple. When Murali bowls on SSC - rank turner and a dust bowl made to suit spin bowling.
    When Mahela scores on SSC - absolute flat wicket that give spinner nor pacers any chance.

    The level of hypocrisy in unbelievable.


  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    Murali should get extra credit for performing on flat tracks. It's not an easy thing to do for a spinner. I have seen him doing very well on non turners. Anyone clubbing all SL wickets as rank-turners has not seen much of Murali otherwise there is no reason to make that statement. I think this perception may be coming due to SL making bit more flatter wickets after Murali retired but Murali has bowled and done well on enough flat wickets.
    Mention this at a Warne-Murali therad and you will see plenty of people crying out Sl wickets are dustbowls, not flat.

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    It's not due to not being up to the mark. Sanga has done well but Murali has done better. In my opinion, Murali is simply the best off spinner in history of cricket and I can't make that kind of statement for Sanga.
    Sanga isn't the best off spinner in the history of cricket? News to me.
    Last edited by Riggins; 24-07-2014 at 07:58 AM.
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  7. #682
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  8. #683
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    How good is Sanga? Very good.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba
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  9. #684
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    absolutely, i have said before, its simply impossible imo to compare players from different era's due to so many variables like the wickets/frequency of games/opposition faced etc..i think all you can say is that Sanga is definitely within the top players the game has seen...
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  10. #685
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    I looked at stats of away runs in England, Australia and South Africa in the last 10 years. Guess who has the second-highest average among batsmen with more than a 1000 runs.
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  11. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Its more to do with the fact that for the past 5+ years he's been batting at an excellent standard.
    His performance against the 4 best bowling units in the last 5 years. I won't call this excellent standard at all. As I said earlier, aggregate stats going up has made him a focal point and not his excellent cricket in the last 5 years. Few knocks were good one but I am talking about over all performance in any given period being great enough to push any batsman to the next level. I don't think that his performance in the last 5 years does that. He played excellent cricket earlier in his career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Mention this at a Warne-Murali therad and you will see plenty of people crying out Sl wickets are dustbowls, not flat.
    Not true at all. Murali has bowled very well even on flat tracks in SL. All tracks were not dust bowls in SL when Murali bowled. People claiming that have probably not seen him bowl in SL too much. Murali averaged below 20 in in few venues outside of SL as well. Even in SA he averages around 26. We can't start calling all of those instances as dust bowl.

    Sure, he used to become more dangerous on spin friendly surface but that's expected from any spinner. Over all, he has done very well on different surfaces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggins View Post
    Sanga isn't the best off spinner in the history of cricket? News to me.
    A good one
    Last edited by simonlee48; 24-07-2014 at 05:22 PM.
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  12. #687
    International Debutant ohnoitsyou's Avatar
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    It is quite possible for a pitch to be a road days one and two, before turning into dustbowls days four and five

  13. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoitsyou View Post
    It is quite possible for a pitch to be a road days one and two, before turning into dustbowls days four and five
    No one is saying that Murali always had roads to bowl. Many times it happened the way you are describing but I recall Murali doing damage on roads as well. It's wrong to say that Murali always had dust bowl to perform. In fact let's examine his 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th innings performances in SL.

    Murali in 1st inning in SL - Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Murali in 2nd inning in SL - Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Murali in 3rd inning in SL - Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Murali in 4th inning in SL - Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    So we have Murali averaging 20, 17, 20, & 19 in 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th inning. Looks very consistent to me. If pitches were roads for the first few days then he did great even on roads.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    If anyone still has some doubts then let's look at his first inning performance at SSC.

    Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Dude is averaging below 20 in SSC in first inning. Now it will absurd to claim that SSC was dust bowl from the day one.

    That's why I said, anyone claiming that Murali didn't do great on roads has not seen him bowling too much. I saw and remember him doing great on many roads multiple times. He didn't always have dust bowls in SL.
    Last edited by simonlee48; 24-07-2014 at 11:29 PM.
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  14. #689
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    I've watched Sangakkara bat and he's looks brilliant. So as far as middle order batsman go I would put him just below Tendulkar, Richards, Lara, and Sobers, but on a par with the likes of Kallis, Ponting, and Chappell. I think that's a fair enough reflection of the current zeitgeist.
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  15. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoitsyou View Post
    It is quite possible for a pitch to be a road days one and two, before turning into dustbowls days four and five
    And Sanga bats on the first two days and Murali bowls on last few days every time.

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