How good is Sanga?

[Jager]

Miller's captaincy > Imran's IMO

 

[smash84]

Smali seems to be on a roll. Though I believe that being a good slipper adds value to a player and a side and when I do my drafts and A.T. teams I always try to include 3 good slip fielders, contrary to.what Smali I do not consider them to be all rounders.
Now, as England showed today and in the past, it is unwise to go into a test with just your front line bowlers and a legitimate fifth bowler, ala Sobers, Kallis, Weekes, Watson, Waugh ect is often required dor optimum team balance and while a bowling all rounder gives your batting depth (Imran, Hadlee, Broad ect) unless he can consistently bat in the top 6, doesn't offer you that 5th bowler to rest your front line seamers or give you that elusive break through. Miller and Botham were the exceptions as true all rounders, but Botham dropped of drastically and Miller was inconsistent with the bat and often under used with the ball. Hence I rate batting all rounders higher and more important, and additionally if you are relying on your #8 to save you match after match you have bigger problems.
Hence to smali's point, I do find a great batsman whos is great slipper (Lara, Ponting, Weekes) to be almost or just as important to a side as a bowling a/r, a batsman who can bat, bowl a bit and offer me a great slipper (Hammond, McCabe, Kallis, Sobers, Simpson, Chappell ect.) to much more important and crucial to a side than a bowling a/r.
So yes Kallis is to me just behind Sobers, though Imrans captaincy makes it a virtual dead heat.

nb: Not looking for a fight.

I am not looking for a fight either

But there are 2 big holes in each of kallis and Sobers' AR resumes.

If you are talking about under bowling Kallis has something like 1.8 wickets per match. That is low.

Also Sobers strikes every 15 or 16 overs. Heck even Tendulkar strikes that often in test matches. Also think twice about bowling Sobers against Pakistan. His bowling strike rate is something like 358 or something meaning that he will bowl all day against Pakistan and still won't take a wicket

 

[smash84]

miller's captaincy > imran's imo

hell nooo

 

[marc71178]

Now, as England showed today and in the past, it is unwise to go into a test with just your front line bowlers

And yet that same formula has proven successful for a long time for them, and was also the formula adapted by the 2 most successful sides of all time. So how unwise is it actually?

 

[kyear2]

hell nooo

rotfl

 

[kyear2]

And yet that same formula has proven successful for a long time for them, and was also the formula adapted by the 2 most successful sides of all time. So how unwise is it actually?

Not a sustainable one unless you have Mcgrath and Warne or Marshall and Holding, and even they had the Waugh brothers early on and both Viv and Lloyd used to turn over their arms to rest the fast men. But yes they mainly survived without either batting or bowling all rounders (though Warne and Marshall came close), but unless you have at least two ATG bolwers in your team they will need help.

 

[marc71178]

Define sustainable. I'd say 4 years or so is a pretty long time for it not be sustainable. Even in the worst recent performances (this Test aside) the 4 man attack was ****ing awesome and the batsmen (who you would want to weaken by removing one) were ****.

 

[vic_orthdox]

If you are talking about under bowling Kallis has something like 1.8 wickets per match. That is low.

It's low for a bowler, not necessarily for a fifth bowler. If South Africa have ever picked only three other bowlers along with Kallis, then it would be an issue.

 

[smash84]

so the main usefulness of the batting all rounder is for the main bowlers to take a rest?

 

[Red]

so the main usefulness of the batting all rounder is for the main bowlers to take a rest?

Yep. Steve and Mark Waugh, Doug Walter and Symonds were sort of "just" all-rounders. They were selected for their batting mostly, but they might bowl 6 or 8 overs a day and chip in with a wicket. It allows the quick bowlers to keep fresh.

 

[Red]

What do people think it takes to be a genuine all rounder?

A batting average of over 25 and bowling average of under 40 with your secondary skill IMO.

Batting average of 30 plus, bowling average of around (or under) 30 for an ATG AR IMO.

Variations on that depending on the needs of the team.

 

[marc71178]

What do people think it takes to be a genuine all rounder?

A batting average of over 25 and bowling average of under 40 with your secondary skill IMO.

A lot more than that, good enough to perform with both disciplines at the same time and justify a spot.

 

[watson]

If you're playing your allrounder at Nos 1-6 then a batting average of around 40 plus and a bowling average of around 30 or less is more or less required.

If batting at No. 7 or 8 then a batting average of 25-35 is OK, but the bowling average must be below 30 at least.

For an ATG team.

(These figures are relative to the era the allrounder was playing in of course)

 

[Viscount Tom]

Except he doesn't want to be.

 

[ankitj]

South Africa in England 2012: Jacques Kallis underappreciated no longer | Cricket Features | England v South Africa | ESPN Cricinfo

Kallis is gun. We have to stop clutching straws with him. I ranked him at 13 in the last cw50 exercise and I believe he deserved that totally.

 

[kyear2]

And yet that same formula has proven successful for a long time for them, and was also the formula adapted by the 2 most successful sides of all time. So how unwise is it actually?

Been giving this a lot of though and I must admit that you are right, while it is not a hinderence to have a Sobers, Kallis or Imran, having a great all rounder has not really been a feature of the greatest teams with the exception of South Africa and Barlow.
What forced Sobers to be a great all rounder was the lack of quality bolwers at varying parts of his career and the importance of a great bowling all rounder is amplified by the weaknesses of their top order. Great teams for the most part were defined by great bowlers and strong batting line ups while it was the otherwise weaker teams that required the services of All Rounders.
I still think that it is good for team balance to have that good fifth bowler, but history says other wise.

The one theory that I have though that history does back up is that most of the great teams did have great cordons, and so from a winning perspective they seem to hold a greater importance than traditional all rounders. This can be a mere coincidence, but it is there, so ...................

The key though is to gain these additional qualities with out loosing or taking away from the quality batsmen or bowlers who makes the team great.

 

[kyear2]

Sorry guys, but to digress once again to my fav pet peeve, Cook's drop cost England a century by Pieterson today, and highlights the importance of having a settled and excellent cordon.Everyone will drop one from time to time (though he somewhat made up for it soon after with a blinder) but that one was a sitter that any regular slipper should have taken.

 

[Spark]

Yeah, definitely agree. You can't just throw good fielders into slip and expect them to be good slippers, plenty of examples where that's failed over the years.

 

[smash84]

Sorry guys, but to digress once again to my fav pet peeve, Cook's drop cost England a century by Pieterson today, and highlights the importance of having a settled and excellent cordon.Everyone will drop one from time to time (though he somewhat made up for it soon after with a blinder) but that one was a sitter that any regular slipper should have taken.

what if the catch had gone down in the covers?

 

[Red]

Yeah, definitely agree. You can't just throw good fielders into slip and expect them to be good slippers, plenty of examples where that's failed over the years.

I reckon most very good fielders are also good slippers. Using Australians as an example-

Mark Waugh
Ricky Ponting
Allan Border

(and also guys like Viv, Clive Lloyd, AB DeVil)

have all been excellent fielders, and also excellent slippers.

Some guys, like Taylor, Hayden and Warne, have been excellent (or at least good) slippers, but pretty average fielders.