Andy Roberts' place in the pantheon of Caribbean Pace Men

[bagapath]

Smali! I wont trust imran to take unbiased calls in ranking players. For a very long time he was ranking inzi along with lara and sachin until inzi's mom tearfully requested him to stop embarrassing her son.

 

[kyear2]

Lol.

What did Imran say about Marshall?

 

[smash84]

Smali! I wont trust imran to take unbiased calls in ranking players. For a very long time he was ranking inzi along with lara and sachin until inzi's mom tearfully requested him to stop embarrassing her son.

haha....i don't recall the tearful requests from Inzy's mom but who said anything about unbiased rankings? If anything these are Imran's subjective opinions on players he played alongside with.

He has his own opinions. He rates Viv as the greatest batsmen he ever saw and rates Sunny > Tendulkar. Also when he first saw Sami he mentioned him as somebody with all the ingredients of Malcolm Marshall. But that is just what it is. His opinion.

 

[wpdavid]

Roberts was the first from Antigua to play for West Indies - he and Richards between them really put the island on the map - and was renowned for having two bouncers: the first the batsman usually saw, the second he often didn't - or at least not until it was too late.

He was also the first of the new breed that emerged in the mid-1970's, who were significantly faster and meaner than the likes of Boyce, Julien and Holder who immediately preceded them. iirc Holding's debut came a couple of years later, and then after a couple more years the floodgates opened. That meant that he carried a greater load than the guys who followed - at least during the first few years of his test career. He was one of the few cases when phrases like 'leader of the attack' actually meant something.

 

[Teja.]

Sunil Gavaskar in Runs n' Ruins rates Roberts the best paceman he has had the privilege to face.

I've also read from various accounts about his deadly slower bouncer.

 

[fredfertang]

Sunil Gavaskar in Runs n' Ruins rates Roberts the best paceman he has had the privilege to face.

Mind you Sunny did once say that of John Price

 

[stumpski]

In 1971, Price was conceivably the quickest bowler that Gavaskar had faced up to that point. By some accounts he was distinctly sharp, right up there with Snow and Willis but without the same durability.

 

[Teja.]

Mind you Sunny did once say that of John Price

Old sunny has never been particularly stingy with his issuing of titles for someone having a rather strong case to open an All-time XI.

In fairness, If I recall correctly, The book was written about the 1984 'revenge' tour to India in which Marshall and Holding performed exceptionally both bagging over 30 wickets each at 20 and Roberts was over the hill and only played the tests after the series result was buried, so we can at least conclude he considers Roberts a better bowler than Maco and Holding.

My love for that performance will force me to add that Kapil Dev outperformed every bowler from either side in that series with, for all intents and purposes, no specialist bowler back up, Ravi Shastri with his unoffensive darts as his second best bowler and a knee diagnosed to be requiring surgery prior to the series.

 

[fredfertang]

In 1971, Price was conceivably the quickest bowler that Gavaskar had faced up to that point. By some accounts he was distinctly sharp, right up there with Snow and Willis but without the same durability.

I know Uton Dowe was a bit of a laughing stock but he was apparently pretty sharp, and I'd definitely have said that Van Holder was a good deal quicker than Price, although the memories are pretty distant these days

 

[wpdavid]

In 1971, Price was conceivably the quickest bowler that Gavaskar had faced up to that point. By some accounts he was distinctly sharp, right up there with Snow and Willis but without the same durability.

Yeah, but Price was getting on a bit by 1971. I'd be surprised if he was quicker than Snow in that series. Maybe 4 or 5 years previously. But Sunny didn't tour in 1967 did he?

 

[kyear2]

I find that Roberts is similar to Wasim in so much that those who played them, called them the best but their career stats just dont hold up. So they may have been the most skillful and hardest to face, buy not the most succesful.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

It's no insult to Roberts to say that he simply wasn't quite as good as Marshall, Holding and co.

 

[kyear2]

It's no insult to Roberts to say that he simply wasn't quite as good as Marshall, Holding and co.

Awta.

No shame at all, as I consider Marshall the best ever and Holding not far behind, with Ambrose somewhere in between.

 

[watson]

Sunil Gavaskar in Runs n' Ruins rates Roberts the best paceman he has had the privilege to face.

I've also read from various accounts about his deadly slower bouncer.

I think that you'll find that it's his fast bouncer that cleans up the batsman and is the 'deadly' delivery.

It was 'deadly' because it was sometimes bowled after 1-2 slow easier bouncers. The batsman got lulled into a false sense of security, tried to hook, but then was too late on the shot and got whacked

 

[watson]

An interesting read;

EIGHT GENIAL GIANTS: A PICTORIAL VIEW ACROSS 28 YEARS

Posted by Anantha Narayanan on 04/08/2011

..........This is a graphical look at the 8 West Indian pace bowling giants who played across 28 years and 226 Tests. This required a lot of specialized programming work and the results have come out very nicely and pleasing to the eye. The layouts and formatting work itself took a few days. The readers can download the graphs, study these at leisure and come out with their conclusions.....

It Figures | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

Here is the best quote from the middle of the article;

The second surprise is that in tests in which West Indies had fielded 4 pace bowlers, out of the selected 8, their win percentage is below 50. This indicates that the best combination was three top pace bowlers and one bowler of different type, a spinner or even a medium pace swing bowler, to maintain balance.

 

[smash84]

I find that Roberts is similar to Wasim in so much that those who played them, called them the best but their career stats just dont hold up. So they may have been the most skillful and hardest to face, buy not the most succesful.

possibly

 

[Red]

I find that Roberts is similar to Wasim in so much that those who played them, called them the best but their career stats just dont hold up. So they may have been the most skillful and hardest to face, buy not the most succesful.

I agree with this. When considering bowling, stats don't always give a true picture, and a 3 or 4 run variance between bowling averages or SRs really doesn't matter that much. It's slitting hairs a bit.

I find that a lot of people who haven't faced Marshall look at his low average and conclude he must have been "the best". But a lot of people who faced these guys don't consider him "the best", and rate Lillee or Roberts more highly. While Marshall's stats are better, a lot of players disliked facing the others more.

Not that I am in a position to talk! The best bowler I have ever faced was Damian Fleming when he was 2 or 3 years past his prime, and he was far too good for me!

 

[kyear2]

I believe that even more than for a batsman, stats are relevant and do count. Your job is to keep the run rate down and take wickets, primarily top order wickets. Marshall not only did that better than anyone else of the modern era, also had all of the tools and was blisteringly fast and hostile when he wanted to be. He could adapt to any condition and be succesful, be it India, England or flat or bouncy Aussie wickets. He to me was the Hobbs and Bradman of his craft and along with Warne to me are by some distance the greatest bowlers of the modern or possibly any era, with a though to bowlers like Barnes or O'Reilly who we never really saw.

 

[Days of Grace]

Interesting that Roberts retired quite early at 32. Was it the sheer workload that eventually got to him?

Can someone shed some light on this?

Marshall
Ambrose
Walsh
Garner
Holding
Roberts

for me in terms of sheer stats. Walsh probably the most underrated fast bowler of all.

 

[ImpatientLime]

Find it a little astonishing that Marshall over Ambrose is so clear cut in this thread. Ambrose is not celebrated enough these days for my liking.