Associate Nations' All Time XI

[harsh.ag]

I was wondering if an Associates' ATXI will be competitive against the full members. So, this endeavor seeks to compose a team from the players of Ireland, Canada, Kenya, Netherlands, Scotland, Afghanistan, Bermuda, UAE... you get the point. Not including East Africa squads of "yore". Also, the pre-test era Bangladesh players qualify, so do the pre-1981 Sri Lankan players, but only the ones who played their entire careers as Associates.

Secondly, I wanted to make sure this team includes players who truly represent the Associate Nations. For this reason, only the players who were born and brought up in non-test playing nations are eligible in my book. For example, players like Dirk Nannes, Trent Johnston, Tom Cooper, Rizwan Cheema learnt their craft in Australia and Pakistan, in a cricket friendly environment, hence it would not make sense to include them. On the other hand, someone like a Eoin Morgan finds a place because he did it all in Ireland. You may disagree with this approach, and I would welcome your inputs.

So, this is the team I wound up with:

Openers
William Porterfield (Ireland)
Alexei Kervezee (Netherlands)

Middle Order
Ed Joyce (Ireland)
Eoin Morgan (Ireland)
Ryan ten Doeschate (Netherlands)
Steve Tikolo (Kenya)
Niall o'Brien (w) (Ireland)

Bowlers
Thomas Odoyo (Kenya)
George Dockrell (Ireland)
Hamid Hassan (Afghanistan)
William Boyd Rankin (Ireland)

Ashish Bagai from Canada came really close to getting selected ahead of Niall o'Brien. Couldn't find a place for Kevin though. Do you think he should be in the side? If yes, then ahead of which player? Also, Paul Stirling really comes close to getting selected ahead of Kervezee. Would welcome suggestions for a better opener. As for the bowlers, Nannes and Johnston are ineligible due to my approach, and I left out Botha. Hassan from Afghanistan is a great prospect. Would like to know about better bowlers.

So, the final list is dominated by the Irish. Seems like a team that could give many test playing nations a run for their money, what say?

 

[uvelocity]

needs more dwayne leverock

 

[Jager]

But Eoin Morgan didn't play his entire career as an associate. Also, Chubb, rvd and Migara all tried their hands at this over in this thread...

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/48801-best-all-time-xi-each-country-23.html

so you might find their teams interesting. Most of your players are currently playing as well, intentional?

 

[stumpski]

I would try to find room for the Afghan all-rounder Nabi somewhere. Joyce hasn't really done much for Ireland so far has he?

Also worth pointing out that Scotland and Ireland have both been playing f-c cricket for around 100 years, long enough for each to have their own all-time side. Mike Denness played for Scotland early on IIRC.

 

[Dan]

Not so much an All-Time XI as a 'Semi-Current FC Standard Associate Players' XI.
These are the sides I came up with a couple of days ago:

Associates XI

1. Will Porterfield (Ireland)
2. John Davison (Canada)
3. Mohammad Shahzad (Afghanistan)
4. David Hemp (Bermuda)
5. Ryan ten Doeschate (Netherlands)
6. Niall O'Brien (Ireland) [+]
7. Steve Tikolo (Kenya) [c]
8. Bart King (USA)
9. Roland Lefebvre (Netherlands)
10. Hamid Hasan (Afghanistan)
11. Ole Mortensen (Denmark)

George Dockrell (Ireland), Boyd Rankin (Ireland), Ashish Bagai (Canada) and Mohammad Nabi (Afghanistan) round out the squad.


Second XI (Played for Test Nations, born/qualified in non-Full Member Countries.)

1. Michael di Venuto (Italy & Australia)
2. Archie Jackson (Scotland & Australia)
3. Ted Dexter (Italy & England)
4. George Headley (Panama & West Indies)
5. Eoin Morgan (Ireland & England)
6. Mike Denness (Scotland & England) [c]
7. Geriant Jones (PNG & England) [+]
8. Gavin Hamilton (Scotland & England)
9. Tim Murtagh (Ireland & England)1
10. Dirk Nannes (Netherlands & Australia)
11. Ian Peebles (Scotland & England)

Joe Scuderi (Italy & Australia)1, Dougie Brown (Scotland & England), Clayton Lambert (USA & West Indies), Hamish Marshall (Ireland & New Zealand), Ed Joyce (Ireland & England) & Tom Cooper (Netherlands & Australia)1 to sit on the bench.

1 Cooper, Scuderi and Murtagh all represented their Full-Member nation at U/19 level.

Both sides would probably be competitive in FC competitions, but wouldn't be likely to regularly trouble full-strength Test sides.

EDIT: This second side is looking more and more test class by the minute. Especially with the addition of Headley, if he counts.

 

[Dan]

I would try to find room for the Afghan all-rounder Nabi somewhere. Joyce hasn't really done much for Ireland so far has he?

Also worth pointing out that Scotland and Ireland have both been playing f-c cricket for around 100 years, long enough for each to have their own all-time side. Mike Denness played for Scotland early on IIRC.

Yep, he was a Scotsman.

Ian Peebles was also Scottish.

EDIT: Ted Dexter was born in Italy, Amjad Khan from Denmark, and Graeme Hick came from Rhodesia, before it gained Test status. Archie Jackson was born in Scotland, too.

EDIT 2: And George Headley was born in Panama. Let's chuck him in the side as well.

 

[uvelocity]

 

[Migara]

If it's an associate XI, that should have players from test countries before getting the test status too. And a pre-test status all time SL XI will be competitive against a lower ranked test teams of today. There were few players from Ceylon of nothe worthy.

Mahadevan Sathasivam, was probably the best batsman played for an associate. He was a belligerent player of both spin and pace, and averaged 40+ against touring test sides.

Daya Sahabandu was a Underwood esque spinner, and definitely was one of the better spinners of late 50s.

TB Kehelgamuwa was a lively fast medium bowler, and possibly the quickest bowler to play for an Associate, if you discount players like Nannes.

If players of current era is only included,

William Porterfield (IRE)
Ahmad Shezard (AFG)
Steven Tikolo* (KEN)
Ryan ten Doschate (NED)
Eoin Morgan (IRE)
Niall O'Brien+ (IRE)
John Davidson (CAN) / Maurice Odumbe (KEN)
Thomas Odoyo (KEN)
Gavin Hamilton (SCO)
Hamid Hasan (AFG)
Boyd Rankin (IRE)

 

[weeman27bob]

needs more dwayne leverock

Not sure there could be much more of him, to be honest.

 

[BackFootPunch]

We're picking this team on the basis of their performance in two-innings cricket yeah? Generally all-time XIs are for Test cricket.

So John Davison probably shouldn't be anywhere near contention, nor should Alexei Kervezee.

Most of the teams put forward so far are reasonable though - could do with more Mohammad Shahzad in a couple of them though. Also Craig Williams from Namibia has done pretty well for himself.

On the bowling front I'd suggest Hiren Varaiya and Leverock should really both be ahead of Dockrell at this stage. And Gerrie Snyman from Namibia should also be worth a look.

 

[Chubb]

This is the team I came up with, but I'd agree Davison shouldn't be there for 5-day cricket... there must be another associate batsman out there good enough to open. I didn't pick anyone who played a test match.

W. Porterfield (Ireland)
J. Davison (Canada)
S. Tikolo (Kenya)
R. ten Doeschate (Holland)
J. Lester (Gentlemen of Philadelphia)
G. Patterson (Gentlemen of Philadelphia)
N O'Brien + (Ireland)
B. King (Gentlemen of Philadelphia)
H. Hasan (Afghanistan)
R. Lefebvre (Holland)
O. Mortensen (Denmark)

There were a couple of others I thought of picking: Percy Clark, who opened the bowling for Philadelphia with Bart King and was pretty handy, and Mohammad Nabi. I would probably have picked Amjad Khan but he has a cap for England. More bowlers than batsmen available and I allowed my soft spot for the Gentlemen of Philadelphia to influence me.

 

[Migara]

Chubb, haven't heard of Mr. Sathasivam?

 

[Dazinho]

Great thread and some interesting nominations. New on here and glad I found this place.

Thought about this after the last world cup and came up with this:-

OutspokenRabbit: OutspokenRabbit's non-Test nations XI

The team was:-

Jon Davison (Canada)
Ed Joyce (Ireland)
Steve Tikolo (Kenya)
Ryan Ten Doeschate (Netherlands)
Eoin Morgan (Ireland)
Kevin O'Brien (Ireland)
Niall O'Brien (Ireland)
Thomas Odoyo (Kenya)
Roland Lefebrve (Netherlands)
Ole Mortensen (Denmark)
Boyd Rankin (Ireland)

Worth asking about Ole Mortensen, given his first class statistics and economy rate in particular. Would he have been qualified to play for England at some point in the late 1980s or not?

I appreciate he was playing for Denmark in World Cup Qualifiers etc, but presumably these don't count as first class matches?

Slightly before my time, so if someone could clarify the point...did he refuse to play for England, was he ineligible or did he inexplicably not get capped when virtually any county journeyman could?

 

[benchmark00]

Not so much an All-Time XI as a 'Semi-Current FC Standard Associate Players' XI.
These are the sides I came up with a couple of days ago:



Both sides would probably be competitive in FC competitions, but wouldn't be likely to regularly trouble full-strength Test sides.

EDIT: This second side is looking more and more test class by the minute. Especially with the addition of Headley, if he counts.

Missing Steve Waugh there...

 

[zaremba]

If it's an associate XI, that should have players from test countries before getting the test status too.

These three spring to mind:

Clarrie Grimmett
Ranji
Andy Flower

 

[harsh.ag]

You guys are fantastically well informed.

Thank you Migara for the name of Mahadevan Sathasivam. I had looked into the 70s for Sri Lankan players of note but not as far back as Satha's time. Don't know about Daya Sahabandu though (fantastic FC record btw), so might stick with Dockrell. Surely David Hemp does not qualify, he was brought up in England, in a cricket friendly environment. Ole Mortensen should definitely be included in the side, hadn't known about him earlier - thanks to dazinho, chubb and rvd619323. On second thoughts, cannot include Eoin Morgan on account of him having played test cricket (Jager is correct). Same goes for Andy Flower, George Headley, Clarrie Grimmett, Mike Denness etc. Lefebrve was certainly not good enough to be included here, surely?

My reformed XI goes:

Openers
William Porterfield (Ireland)
Mohammad Shahzad (Afghanistan), no Davison please

Middle Order
Ed Joyce (Ireland)
Mahadev Sathasivam (Sri Lanka)
Ryan ten Doeschate (Netherlands)
Steve Tikolo (Kenya)
Niall o'Brien (w) (Ireland)

Bowlers
Ole Mortensen (Denmark)
George Dockrell/ Daya Sahabandu (Ireland)/ (Sri Lanka)
Hamid Hassan (Afghanistan)
William Boyd Rankin (Ireland)

Close were: Ashish Bagai (Canada), Alexei Kervezee (Netherlands), Thomas Odoyo (Kenya), Paul Stirling (Ireland), Kevin o'Brien (Ireland) and the disqualified Tom Cooper, David Hemp, Dirk Nannes, Trent Johnson, Rizwaan Cheema, Eoin Morgan, and so on.

 

[Dazinho]

You guys are fantastically well informed.

Thank you Migara for the name of Mahadevan Sathasivam. I had looked into the 70s for Sri Lankan players of note but not as far back as Satha's time. Don't know about Daya Sahabandu though (fantastic FC record btw), so might stick with Dockrell. Surely David Hemp does not qualify, he was brought up in England, in a cricket friendly environment. Ole Mortensen should definitely be included in the side, hadn't known about him earlier - thanks to dazinho, chubb and rvd619323. On second thoughts, cannot include Eoin Morgan on account of him having played test cricket (Jager is correct). Same goes for Andy Flower, George Headley, Clarrie Grimmett, Mike Denness etc. Lefebrve was certainly not good enough to be included here, surely?

My reformed XI goes:

Openers
William Porterfield (Ireland)
Mohammad Shahzad (Afghanistan), no Davison please

Middle Order
Ed Joyce (Ireland)
Mahadev Sathasivam (Sri Lanka)
Ryan ten Doeschate (Netherlands)
Steve Tikolo (Kenya)
Niall o'Brien (w) (Ireland)

Bowlers
Ole Mortensen (Denmark)
George Dockrell/ Daya Sahabandu (Ireland)/ (Sri Lanka)
Hamid Hassan (Afghanistan)
William Boyd Rankin (Ireland)

Close were: Ashish Bagai (Canada), Alexei Kervezee (Netherlands), Thomas Odoyo (Kenya), Paul Stirling (Ireland), Kevin o'Brien (Ireland) and the disqualified Tom Cooper, David Hemp, Dirk Nannes, Trent Johnson, Rizwaan Cheema, Eoin Morgan, and so on.

Good team - glad to have played a marginal role in its formation!!

On the question of Roland, it depends on whether you're constructing a one-day side or looking to nail 20 wickets.

At his peak in the late 1980s and early 1990s he was very much a middle overs dobbler with miserly Larsen-esque accuracy.

Like Super Gav, he could also bat a little which I think is important if you're having both Rankin and Mortensen down there.

There is an interesting question about whether that type of bowler would be successful in limited overs cricket now though, given that batsmen are generally more aggressive from the first ball and use a much wider array of shots to knock the bowler off his rhythm.

So on Lefebrve, if you're looking to tie the score down he's a sure pick IMO.

In a four or five day game, you'd be struggling if he was anything other than the fifth bowler.

It's probably with limited overs cricket in mind that Davison would be picked as a power opener, and we could probably have a similar conversation.

 

[zaremba]

One of the best limited overs spells I've ever seen was by the dibbly-dobblyest of medium pacers, Botha of Ireland in their (in-)famous win over Pakistan in the WC a few years back. Bowled these big hooping slow medium inswingers (a style of bowling for which I have an inexplicable weak spot), took a couple of wickets and appeared to be impossible to get away.

Obviously there are one or two mutterings about that game, but if was a fine spell of bowling nonetheless.

 

[Dazinho]

One of the best limited overs spells I've ever seen was by the dibbly-dobblyest of medium pacers, Botha of Ireland in their (in-)famous win over Pakistan in the WC a few years back. Bowled these big hooping slow medium inswingers (a style of bowling for which I have an inexplicable weak spot), took a couple of wickets and appeared to be impossible to get away.

Obviously there are one or two mutterings about that game, but if was a fine spell of bowling nonetheless.

He certainly choked them, although Boyd's initial spell of damage put them in a tight spot.

The noise about fixed matches is unfortunate for the side who won. One of the problems in any team environment prone to throwing the odd match is that it takes away the absolute intensity needed to be consistent and increases the likelihood of genuine non-performances.

If someone told me that Australia had thrown a match, even a dead rubber with the series already won, I'd refuse to believe it solely for that reason. Their winning mentality was too intense to even entertain the idea.

Whether this was a thrown match or just under-performance from the heavy favourites I guess we'll never know, but either is totally plausible.

 

[Quaggas]

Given the OP rules, surprised everyone's letting RtD slide