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CW50 2nd Edition - No 07

Jono

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Ikki said:
FTR, it's not about me disagreeing with x or y being greater than Viv. I find it hard to believe there are 25 players greater than him.
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Yeah I obviously agree that Teja is a bit nuts to think that, but nevertheless his reasoning isn't too dissimilar to yours in various other threads on this forum.
 
Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
As an aside, almost every time I see a picture of Viv batting I almost immediately also think of robelinda and hence Indians being trolled on youtube. Probably a bad sign.
 
Burgey

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Spark said:
As an aside, almost every time I see a picture of Viv batting I almost immediately also think of robelinda and hence Indians being trolled on youtube. Probably a bad sign.
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I think it's a lovely thought.






















 
Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Fusion said:
So why such a relatively low opinion of Richards, considering how highly regarded he is in the broader cricket world? Does it have to do with stats or something else?
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At risk of Dickinsoning an already hostile thread, I should probably answer this.

I regularly find myself in situations whereby after watching players extensively and following their every score as their career slowly unfolds I disagree quite strongly with public perception and peer analysis of current cricketers. As such, putting a lot of weight into peer analysis of players past would be counter-intuitive - there's every likelihood I'd have disagreed with them too. My historical opinions of cricketers are based largely on how I can deduce they performed; not the skill level their peers claimed they had. These blokes are retired now, so their potential or their overall skill are no longer relevant to their legacy - what matters is how they actually performed. Performance doesn't always meet up with career average (in fact it rarely ever does) so you have to delve deeper into a player's career than that, but I don't find performance matches up with public perception either. Contemporary accounts show you what to look for in a player's numbers and are compelling reading for any true cricket fan as a matter of pure interest, but hold little analytical value of worth beyond that.

More specifically to Viv, though - the reasons people rated him higher than his numbers suggest are largely factors I dismiss off hand about current players. Viv is rated because of his scoring rate, his presence, his aura, his dominance, his outstanding peak etc - all attributes which I find greatly over-rated in players I've seen. Even if I accepted contemporary peer analysis of Richards completely, the actual descriptions of his game would not cause me to rate him any higher, as they are largely of factors I consider relatively tiny when rating a batsman's worth as compared with.. run-scoring. To me he was definitely an all-time great batsman but one on the lower end of that scale and not an all-time world eleven candidate.
 
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Ikki

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Jono said:
But then isn't that the point?

Had you been born 20 years from now, you would rate Sachin and Lara just like you rate Viv. The contemporary opinion on Sachin and Lara is just as strong as Viv, just with different themes or stories.

So shouldn't you then think, well as I was able to view Sachin and Lara live and reckon they are incorrectly rated higher than their contemporaries or past greats (your opinion), then the same is quite possible for Viv?

Huge disclaimer: I actually think Viv is the best of his generation, and same with Lara and Tendulkar, as I value the contemporary opinion highly as well as believe they have the stats/performances to back it up. But just playing devil's advocate as it seems you aren't applying the reasoning you use when assessing current cricketers with past ones. It is simple logic that if you believe contemporaries overrate Sachin and Lara, they overrate Viv too.
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I think you've asked me this question at least twice before and as I've said: I have no problem with anyone who said "I saw x, y and z play" - and build a well-founded argument from there. I just think it's dishonest of myself personally to not consider some extrinsic evidence when judging players of the past that I really didn't get to watch. Even then, I have to see that the praise given actually matches the performances in reality. As you've seen me discuss before, I disagree almost entirely with the consensus on Sobers' bowling.

When I have seen a certain player I give my own input some weight and probably lessen the importance of contemporary opinion. Often, I can see what the opinions are saying of a batsman but simply not agree that they're that important or as important as other factors - as PEWS kind of describes in the above. An example being Tendulkar's longevity. For me it is really irrelevant - unlike PEWS puts a lot of weight on it - past a certain point. What impresses me more about the tail-end of Sachin's career is his ability to get out of a trough, reinvent himself slightly and overcome an obstacle.
 
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smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
I can only imagine the intangibles that came with having Viv Richards in your team

A few runs in an average I might sacrifice but the intangibles that a player like Viv Richards would bring would be more valuable than the few runs he forgoes in average. It is like having a great captain lead your team.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
My opinion on the whole Viv - talent/aura thing putting him above ATG X can be summed up by Welalbidarned's sig.
 
GIMH

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Are there any stats for how many runs WI scored once Viv got out? I mean obviously there are but does anyone have them? Because he demoralised bowlers so much it's be interesting to see how his team mates cashed in on it
 
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