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"Greatest Ever" Lists - A Modern Evolution

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
He didn't play ANY game though - let alone the predecessor to our modern game.

In terms of influential people in cricket, he would make the list, along with (though below) guys like Packer.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
I don't agree that we are measuring players by ability alone. Bradman's greatness isn't just that he was tremendously able and that such ability would have translated into the present day. Part of what made him great was what he actually achieved: the runs he scored, the innings he played, the matches he won, the influence he had on the game and on his country, in the real world in which he actually lived and in the era in which he actually played.
And hence they are both in this list while only one of them is in the greatest XI for most people.
 

Ruckus

International Captain
I think if we're just looking at ability, then multiple problems arise when trying to compare players across eras. If you accept that, on the whole, the standard of cricket at the highest level has increased to some absolute degree (absolute meaning, good players from today transported back to the e.g. 1930’s would very likely excel and not vice versa), then using the ‘comparison with peers’ method to assess a players ability begs many questions.

Firstly, if the standard of cricket is poorer then, naturally, that means how much a certain player has dominated is not going to a particularly valid indication of their ability in the overall context of the game – e.g. (just an analogy, so it’s not meant to be perfect) does a players success in FC cricket accurately tell you how well they will fare in test cricket? No it doesn’t. It suggests they may be a good player at that level as well, but it is by no means a foregone conclusion.

Secondly, I think it is highly likely that many players (batsmen in this case) in the early eras of the game would have been doomed to failure because of major technical deficiencies – batting technique back then was no way near as refined as it is today (different batting conditions accounted for), and if you watch any footage of the game back then I think that should be pretty obvious. So how can you be sure that a player’s dominance from those eras wasn’t largely down to having a relatively refined basic technique – that was ahead of the time - which would later be adopted by almost every batsmen playing at the highest level? Would they necessarily be as dominant in a more level playing field, where the knowledge of what constitutes a good, basic technique was widely known and drilled in to players? Who knows.

Thirdly, even if you assume a player’s dominance could have been due to other, more general, qualities like good hand-eye, tenacity etc. (things you could argue would be directly transferable to another era), how do you know if, at a higher level, those qualities alone would be enough to ensure success? What if a player who dominated in one of those eras was like Phil Hughes (poor technique, but excellent natural ability) and was able to be so successful because of the poorer standards? The obvious analogy here is Phil Hughes’ high level of success in FC cricket not translating to test cricket (thus far, anyway). To be an ATG in this era imo, you have to have both excellent natural abilities and a very solid basic technique to go with it. But you can’t assume the former will inevitably lead to the latter – often it doesn’t.

Those are just some of the reasons why I think that if you accept the game has improved (and not just changed), you can’t make the assumption that players in the early eras necessarily would be as dominant (or even close to it) if they were raised in this era – the bottom line is nobody knows. It also means imo that XIs (and the term ATG, in reference solely to ability, and applied to players from early eras) are pretty much fanciful constructs that have no real meaning at all, other than just for a bit of fun.
 
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Burgey

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Well I thought, and perhaps this assumption is not shared by others, that an all time XI would play similar teams. Meaning an all time XI might be asked to face another all time XI. So regardless of what "year" you play, the good doctor, if you chose him, would have to come out to bat against Allan Donald or Malcolm Marshall (or whoever is in that XI). My guess is that he himself would be in need of a doctor relatively quickly.
Donald would miss the target if something important was on the line.
 

Burgey

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Found this discussion on Grace Itstl. I had him in the top three I confess, largely on influence and transformative bases. I wasn't thinking if pick him in an AT XI when I chose him, just as I wasn't thinking I'd have Worrell in one when I put him in my top five or six. I chose them because of the influence and legacy they left.

All depends what you're looking for I guess.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Found this discussion on Grace Itstl. I had him in the top three I confess, largely on influence and transformative bases. I wasn't thinking if pick him in an AT XI when I chose him, just as I wasn't thinking I'd have Worrell in one when I put him in my top five or six. I chose them because of the influence and legacy they left.

All depends what you're looking for I guess.
And IMO that's a perfectly fair reason to pick someone in lists like this.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Don't see how you could have him lower, if you rank him at all it has to be right near the very top, it is that or leave him out entirely, something I disagree with but do understand.
ESPN Legends of Cricket also had him at like #14, didn't he? I agree with you, if you think he makes it, he would have to be at or near the top.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Originally Posted by Pothas
Don't see how you could have him lower, if you rank him at all it has to be right near the very top, it is that or leave him out entirely, something I disagree with but do understand.
I confess that I was one of the few people who rated him around number 10 so neither at the top or leaving him out altogether. I think while Grace had the biggest impact on the game in terms modernizing the game and popularizing it. I think some of the nine people I ranked ahead of him also had a massive impact on the game. Take even Tendulkar - I am willing to wager there are another 100 million Indians playing cricket today because of him. Hobbs also had an impact on the game etc. As well as contributing a lot to the game the others ahead of him are I just figured better.

My fav story about him is him scoring 200 on a ground with long grass and against 22 fielders.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Heavy bats aren't as much of an advantage as people make out. Heavier bat = slower swing = less time watch the ball = more likely to make a mistake. The upsides don't come without costs.
 

turnstyle

State 12th Man
Heavy bats aren't as much of an advantage as people make out. Heavier bat = slower swing = less time watch the ball = more likely to make a mistake. The upsides don't come without costs.
Heavy? I thought bats these days were compressed with lighter pickups than those from previous eras.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Heavy? I thought bats these days were compressed with lighter pickups than those from previous eras.
Exactly, they have all the advantages of heavier bats without being that much heavier at all.
Strongly disagree, unless modern bats are somehow bending the laws of physics. Which I obviously doubt.

More wood = more power = heavier pickup. You cannot get around that.
 
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smash84

The Tiger King
actually the mass of wood around the surface of the bat is distributed in a much more efficient manner which means that the bat feels much much lighter compared to the bats of previous generations.

So heavier bats don't equal heavier pickup
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Looks like someone's been filled with bat company buzz words. Those techniques undeniably have some impact, but it's not nearly as much as is made out imo.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
You compare the thickness of a 2'8 bat from 1990 and a 2'8 bat from 2010 and tell me what you think.

Even from 5 to 10 years ago, there is a heap more wood behind the bat.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
There's a lot more wood, but that tends to either mean that the bat will be ****ing heavy, or that it's made of lighter less compressed wood, which is what bat companies today are doing due to the market's thirst for thick, meaty bats with light pickups. If it's the second scenario, then the bat won't have any real advantage as the mass of the wood remains the same.
 
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smash84

The Tiger King
. Those techniques undeniably have some impact, but it's not nearly as much as is made out imo.
Wasn't Athers recently commenting how light the bats have become and still retain their stroke power? Apparently it has a lot of effect if Athers word is anything to go by.
 

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