View Poll Results: Should Vettori revert back to playing ODI/T20 at the expense of Tests

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  • Yes - He's much more effective for NZ in the shorter forms

    6 35.29%
  • No - He provides more value for NZ in Tests so shouldn't change

    11 64.71%
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Thread: Should Vettori switch & play ODIs/IT20s again instead of Tests?

  1. #1
    International Coach Zinzan's Avatar
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    Should Vettori switch & play ODIs/IT20s again instead of Tests?

    I'm sure there's others like me who find Vettori's decision to play tests at the expense of ODI's & T20's both ironic & frustrating considering he's a genuinely world-class performer in the shorter-forms, yet appears more & more unsuited to Test cricket at as time goes on.

    Whilst he's arguably been the best no. 8 test batsman in history, I don't believe his technique is good enough to play at no.6. I know he's averaged 40 or so in the last few years, but for me there's a big difference in terms of expectation & approach when you bat at 7 or 8 as opposed to 6 where you're genuinely expected to score runs, and I think we saw signs of that in this latest series against SA.

    The problem is then exacerbated since his bowling has declined to the degree to which he doesn't look like doing anything more than restricting the scoring & hence can't really be relied on as part of a 4 pronged attack.

    Therefore.....Should Vettori do a 180 degree turn and pull out of Tests to play the shorter forms that actually brings his key strength of bowling economically into play ?

  2. #2
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    I think he should continue to play test matches, but as a batting allrounder in the top six.

    He has test centuries against top eight sides at number six, so he is capable, despite failing against a very good South African attack.

    I don't buy the argument in Vettori's case that he gets away with a lesser technique at number eight. Every side knows he is a key component of the batting, and they would be insane not to formulate plans to get rid of him.

    Vettori needs to move up the order and become a fifth bowler.
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    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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  3. #3
    International Coach Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    I think he should continue to play test matches, but as a batting allrounder in the top six.

    He has test centuries against top eight sides at number six, so he is capable, despite failing against a very good South African attack.

    I don't buy the argument in Vettori's case that he gets away with a lesser technique at number eight. Every side knows he is a key component of the batting, and they would be insane not to formulate plans to get rid of him.

    Vettori needs to move up the order and become a fifth bowler.
    So you believe he provides the NZ team more value playing Test cricket than if he played the shorter forms? Because that was effectively the question.

  4. #4
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    He is a world class ODI spinner but his short form batting is as effective as his long form bowling.

    Do you want a batting allrounder in the test side, or a world class ODI spinner in the ODI side? Since we have no shortage of economical spinners who can bat (Nathan McCullum, Ronnie Hira, Bruce Martin et al), I'd prefer the batting allrounder since test standard allrounders are a scarce resource in New Zealand at present, though a few players are showing promise in the Shield.

    If Vettori switched, we would need to replace him in the test side. That means the options are;

    -Finding another allrounder (Ellis and Wells seem to be popular with the selectors at present)
    -Promoting Bracewell to eight and bringing in the extra bowler (likely another spinner, who would be Nethula)


  5. #5
    International Coach Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    I think he should continue to play test matches, but as a batting allrounder in the top six.

    He has test centuries against top eight sides at number six, so he is capable, despite failing against a very good South African attack.
    By 'centuries' at 6 you mean 1 century right?

    Here is his record by batting order Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo which clearly demonstrates to me when he's batting way down at 8 and little is expected of him he averages near on 40, however once he's up the order either at 6 or 7 his average drops below 30.

    Oh and also, here is his bowling record against non-minnows in the last 3 years. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

  6. #6
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Little is expected of him? Players, commentators fans - everyone - know Vettori is the second most valuable wicket in the New Zealand side after Taylor. Some would argue he is the most valuable wicket.

    Every time he comes to the crease at 180/6, everyone breathes a sigh of relief that Vettori is finally in.

    Also, you've included as far back as 1997 in his statistics at number six, when he had the batting prowess of a duck. Hardly a representative sample of the batsman he is today.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Also, you've included as far back as 1997 in his statistics at number six, when he had the batting prowess of a duck. Hardly a representative sample of the batsman he is today.
    Lol Flem, there were only 2 innings out of 17 when he batted 6 prior to 2008, so hardly much of an impact.

  8. #8
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    I still think, given a longer opportunity, he will have consistent success at six.

    Your expectation argument is not convincing for me. Everyone expects Vettori to be the most annoying player in the world when he strolls in at number eight.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Little is expected of him? Players, commentators fans - everyone - know Vettori is the second most valuable wicket in the New Zealand side after Taylor. Some would argue he is the most valuable wicket.
    Lol, what a load of rubbish. So you think teams breathe a bigger sigh of relief when Vettori falls as opposed to McCullum, Ryder, Brownlie & Guptill then? righto.

    It's possible this may have been the case back in 2009 when Vettori was at the peak of his powers, but certainly not these days.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post

    Your expectation argument is not convincing for me.
    Yet the statistics clearly suggest otherwise......his average drops by 10 when he bats at 6 or 7 as opposed to 8.

  11. #11
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinzan View Post
    Lol, what a load of rubbish. So you think teams breathe a bigger sigh of relief when Vettori falls as opposed to McCullum, Ryder, Brownlie & Guptill then? righto.
    Yes, I think they do. It will be interesting to hear what posters from other countries have to say.

    Vettori is an infinitely better batsman than McCullum 2003-2009 and Guptill.

  12. #12
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinzan View Post
    Yet the statistics clearly suggest otherwise......his average drops by 10 when he bats at 6 or 7 as opposed to 8.
    Number 8: 48 tests
    Number 6: 13 tests

    Might have something to do with it.

  13. #13
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    Anyway Flem, my main contention that he provides far more benefit to the team in the shorter forms as opposed to me simply calling for his head in Tests. This is based on the assumption he doesn't want to play all forms.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Number 8: 48 tests
    Number 6: 13 tests

    Might have something to do with it.
    Or.... 24 Tests (29 innings) if you combine his performances at 6 & 7 in which he averages under 30 as opposed to 39 batting at 8. that's quite telling to me.

  15. #15
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    The hard part for me about your main contention is he is a completely different player in the two formats (I think we agree there), so it depends on what you want in the team.

    I think he is of more use in test matches, but not by a huge margin, because he is a genuine and our only test standard batting allrounder. On the other hand, we have a couple of good limited overs spinners who can bat. Nathan McCullum is no Vettori, but he is a solid bowler, and a better ODI batsman than Vettori.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 30-03-2012 at 07:06 PM.

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