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England captains winning the toss

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I would like to make a comparison between two recent(ish) situations of renown:
1, Rangiri Dambull Stadium, 17th November, 2003, about 0800AM GMT. Marvan Atapattu flips a coin. Michael Vaughan calls correctly. He chooses to bat first. All logic points to this being the right decision (in recent practice-sessions under the lights, the ball swung all over the place; practice balls, this is). His opposite-number agrees that he would like very much to have won the toss and done what his opposite-number has done. However, a few hours later Vaughan's team have got themselves out (with some help from superb Sri Lankan bowling and near faultless fielding) for 88. Atapattu's team knock-off the runs without Atapattu, down to come in at three, needing to bat. Vaughan's decision is barely mentioned, because it was the right decision.
2, Brisbane Cricket Ground (Woolloongabba?), 7th November, 2002, about 1200 AM GMT. Stephen Waugh flips a coin. Nasser Hussain calls correctly. He chooses to field first. All logic points to this being the right decision (there is grass on the pitch; Australia have The World's finest exponents of a green wicket to open their bowling; England have four seamers too, three of whom are proven as potentially devestating if not consistent by any means plus one fairly unknown quantity and a useless spinner). His opposite-number mentions that he would have done the same had he won the toss. A day later Hussain's bowlers have bowled a not-unusual load of tripe and conceded 186 to a batsman who has been dropped twice off absolute sitters and caught at fine-leg and given not-out, plus 120-something to a batsman in about as prime a nick as you will ever see. Four days later Hussain's batsmen have collapsed to a 384-run defeat. Hussain is villified by the Australian Press (totally to be expected; best thing to do is comfort yourself in the certain knowledge that you have better vision than them) and his own "supporters" especially someone who was a sensational player for 10 years and has huge following for his words. People say it was a stupid, negative decision. This opinion wins almost universal acclaim.
Notice any parallels? Or any inconsistencies?
For me the criticism of Hussain at The 'Gabba was the beginning of the end and it was one of the most glaring examples of nationosyncratic stupidity of cricket Press in England. People in this branch just don't seem to understand the fact that a good thing can last for as long as a piece of string. England's Test-side without Hussain's captaincy is much poorer than with it. And it's mostly the fault of the Press, like so many poor selections.
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
I agree with you 100% about the Gabba situation , anyone who actually watched the match will have noticed it had a considerable amount of grass & for the first hour or so of the match there was actually a lot of movement , Hoggard bowled well & was very unlucky , he hit the two lefties on the pads & thighs several times in that first spell & he always looked like he was going to get a wicket.
However Caddick was well below his best (suprise) and the feilding was comedic.

Now if Caddick had put the ball in the right place , England (Vaughan in particular) had held their catches , and luck had been a little more on their side as far as lbw's went (Hoggard had a couple which looked very good turned down) then Australia may well have been knocked over for 180 , and Hussain's decision to feild would have been praised as a tactical masterpeice.

Had Waugh won the toss & bowled McGrath & Gillespie would likely have put it on the spot & bowled England out for 180odd , I dont really think Hussain was to blame for that defeat , Caddick was.:D

I think we actually had exactly the same debate on Cricinfo a while back aswell.

Gee You're very keen Richard , its nearly 11 in NSW so it must be the wee hours by now in the UK.
 
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luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'm a simple soul - my head's not cluttered with all this Cartesian dualism nonsense, so I like the Geoff Boycott school of decision-making.

If you win the toss, have a close look at the wicket. Examine it for greenness, hardness, cracks, take advice from the weather-forecasters and the strength of the opposition, THEN decide to bat.

You'll be right 95% of the time - and the other 5%, you won't be wrong.
 

Craig

World Traveller
For me is Simon Jones had stayed on the boundary rope, he would of caught Hayden when he was on 40.

He made a great effort in the end to field it and throw it in, but John Crawley had no chance of getting there.

I dont think even Tim Montgomery would of got there.

Vaughan dropped catches he is more then capable of catching, while Hoggard ran himself around in circles and managed to drop Hayden and perhaps had he stayed where he was, he would of taken it.

For me, the series was lost after that. The mental stranglehold by Australia was too much for England.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
luckyeddie said:
I'm a simple soul - my head's not cluttered with all this Cartesian dualism nonsense, so I like the Geoff Boycott school of decision-making.

If you win the toss, have a close look at the wicket. Examine it for greenness, hardness, cracks, take advice from the weather-forecasters and the strength of the opposition, THEN decide to bat.

You'll be right 95% of the time - and the other 5%, you won't be wrong.
I always thought it was WG Grace who said that. "If it is a good wicket, I look at it, then I bat. If it looks like there might be some assistance for the bowlers, I think about it a bit, then I bat. If there's a lot of assistance for the bowlers, I think about it for a while, then I bat".
Personally I say unless there's clear evidence that the pitch will deteriorate quite quickly (eg in the first 2 days) then field first.
Unfortunately the old theories in the days of wickets that almost never got better still persist into the days when, IMO, they no longer apply.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
It's certainly the case that, in the past, the uncovered wickets tended to dictate matters more than now - but the old adage about runs on the board still goes a long way.

Re the old saying, it may well have been WG who said it. I just pinched it from Boyks who pinched it from Cowdrey who pinched it from May who pinched it from Surridge who etc
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
The "runs on the board" argument is undoubtedly a factor - how often to batting-line-ups roll over just because their opposition has scored 650?
However, if you get decent bowlers you won't get runs on the board - simple as. For me, if you're Sri Lanka, you just think - if Chaminda and Murali bowl well, we'll take wickets anywhere, any time. Good seamers' conditions; give Chaminda first use. In the unlikely event he fails, you've got Murali to come on. No seam; stick 'em in, Chaminda and Murali will still get 'em out for 200 and that's even more of a blow than you piling-up 600 - and you can still do that. The only occasion you want to bat will be on a raging turner; not because Murali will be especially more effective later, but because you'll score more against any spinners (and seamers) on the opposite side early on. The same applied with Pakistan (Waqar, Wasim, Shoaib, Saqlain, Mushtaq)
You see my point? The best team will usually win regardless of the toss, unless it is, say, India against Australia on a raging turner. Then toss can make a difference.
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
Richard said:
The best team will usually win regardless of the toss, unless it is, say, India against Australia on a raging turner. Then toss can make a difference.
Or , say England against South Africa on a crumbler at Trent Bridge , toss was all that mattered there aswell:lol:
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
iamdavid said:
Or , say England against South Africa on a crumbler at Trent Bridge , toss was all that mattered there aswell:lol:
You what?

445 versus 362 in the first innings then England collapsed to 118.

The toss was not as significant as you make out.
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
marc71178 said:
You what?

445 versus 362 in the first innings then England collapsed to 118.

The toss was not as significant as you make out.
IMO the pitch deteriorated so much during the course of the match that the toss basically decided the outcome , it went from an absolute batting paradise on day 1 , quite 2 paced on day 3 , absolutely unplayable from about lunch on day 4 onwards , James Kirtley & Pollock both picked up 6 fors simply by bowling at the pegs & allowing the pitch to do the work.

I recall in particular the ball which bowled Pollock , pitched just short of a good length , from Flintoff you'd generally expect that up around you're ribs , however this one shot through below his shins , and there were others which jumped at the gloves , I reckon South Africa did very well to make 131 in that last innings.

Just for reference heres the scorecard
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
I totally agree with iamdavid in this instance.

The biggest surprise to me was how (comparatively) well the pitch played on the first two days.

Trent Bridge have major wicket problems at present - I reckon the only reason Notts weren't fined for sub-standard pitches last season was that they have a test match venue (and Phil Sharpe's boys can't be seen to be criticising one of the 'big boys', can they? No, far easier to just keep clobbering Derbyshire)

Rant over.
 

Craig

World Traveller
With my Hussain winning the toos in Brisbane, then getting made regret it, he ended up batting first at the WACA, which he probably would of been better off bowling.

However, the best bowler that played in that Test was Craig White (I mean for England), so it probably didnt make a difference.

Why Richard Dawson played is beyond me. He was hardly used.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
iamdavid said:
Or , say England against South Africa on a crumbler at Trent Bridge , toss was all that mattered there aswell:lol:
Or Australia against England on a crumbler at The SCG...
they actually happen quite a bit. A slightly inferior side wins by a large margin as a result of the toss.
At least with the South Africa-England thing the fortune was reversed in the next match and justice was done.
 

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