What to do when 'the greats' retire?

[Furball]

The problem is that because there are loads of English and Australian fans on the internet in comparison to SA, their bowlers get talked up a lot more. Between Steyn, Morkel, Philander, De Lange and Tsotsobe we choose 3 front-liners. There is still Parnell (who for the record is only 22) for the future. After them there are still a good few good bowlers in our FC system - you just don't hear of them as much because there isn't nearly as much of a following of domestic cricket in SA and Aus, particularly among cricket forumers.
Andrew Birch | South Africa Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

Most will have never heard of him I would think but his record speaks for itself - yet he isn't in the national selectors thoughts.

South Africa's bowlers get massively over-hyped on here.

 

[Prince EWS]

*sigh*

In proper First Class cricket, Birch has 71 wickets @ 28.71. Yeah that's not a bad record but his actual record is highly deceiving because of South Africa's insistence on giving their amateur feeder competition First Class status. This is exactly the reason there are so many South African cricketers with stupidly good "First Class" records who don't get spoken of at all; the cricket some of these guys play is First Class in name only. If we gave Sydney Grade cricket First Class status I could've linked to Grant Lambert's cricinfo profile and made the same silly point.

It seems like I have to make this post about some random South African every other day on here; either Mr Prez doesn't know a lot about his own country's domestic structure or he's just being intellectually dishonest.

 

[marc71178]

The problem is that because there are loads of English and Australian fans on the internet in comparison to SA, their bowlers get talked up a lot more.

On the internet in general you must be talking about because one thing this forum doesn't lack is South African fans talking up their players.

 

[MrPrez]

See but even outside Steyn I think there's a very real drop in quality in that list of five names that you mention from left to right.

*sigh*

In proper First Class cricket, Birch has 71 wickets @ 28.71. Yeah that's not a bad record but his actual record is highly deceiving because of South Africa's insistence on giving their amateur feeder competition First Class status. This is exactly the reason there are so many South African cricketers with stupidly good "First Class" records who don't get spoken of at all; the cricket some of these guys play is First Class in name only. If we gave Sydney Grade cricket First Class status I could've linked to Grant Lambert's cricinfo profile and made the same silly point.

It seems like I have to make this post about some random South African every other day on here; either Mr Prez doesn't know a lot about his own country's domestic structure or he's just being intellectually dishonest.

No I understand my country's system perfectly thank you very much.

What you are not understanding is that his full record is still roughly extrapolatable(sic) to a bowler from, say, county cricket. Although he may be playing 'second rate' pro cricket for a fair part of that career, keep in mind that only 6 franchises exist in comparison to the 18 or whatever counties in England. What you mighy call equivalent to second XI cricket is actually not at all - these players are at a level that would be making county but not being stars.

 

[MrPrez]

On the internet in general you must be talking about because one thing this forum doesn't lack is South African fans talking up their players.

Of course, which is why I didn't say cricketweb.

 

[Prince EWS]

No I understand my country's system perfectly thank you very much.

What you are not understanding is that his full record is still roughly extrapolatable(sic) to a bowler from, say, county cricket. Although he may be playing 'second rate' pro cricket for a fair part of that career, keep in mind that only 6 franchises exist in comparison to the 18 or whatever counties in England. What you mighy call equivalent to second XI cricket is actually not at all - these players are at a level that would be making county but not being stars.

It is absolute codswallop to compare the three day provincial challenge to county cricket in any way. As a South African you'll know better than anyone how many foreign-born players play county cricket, either as Kolpaks or genuine overseas players, which greatly negates the player pool argument. If you took the best 72 genuine local players plus all the overseas players and all the Kolpak players out of county cricket and made the remaining players play in an eleven team competition - which is essentially what happens in the Airways comps - it'd be rubbish as well, but that's not what happens.

Even beyond that, the infrastructure at each of the counties matches the franchise system; not the provincial system. County cricketers are all professionally contracted and exposed to fully professional coaching, facilities, physios etc; this allows for greater development of players. It's hard to get the balance right in domestic competition but it's certainly not just a matter of saying there are X amount of FC standard players in each country; whether or not you're of First Class standard can often be dependant on the infrastructure you're exposed to and the standard of cricket you develop in.

The very idea that a massive group of players could be unavailable for a domestic First Class fixture because they were playing in another domestic First Class competition in that country that acted above it completely and used it as a feeder comp makes an entire mockery of the term "First Class". Ugandan club cricket has more of a right to the status than the provincial shower because at least it'd be the premier domestic competition in that nation while it was being played.

 

[MrPrez]

Basically what has happened is that SA pro cricket has been developed into two tiers - the rich, famous etc franchise tier and the semi-pro tier. Many of the players that play 'semi-pro' would be plying their trade in full pro cricket if we were to revert back to the old provincial team method.I will grant you that the CSA 3-day challenge is not county-level (duh) but it is certainly not second-division either. It is basically made up of the fillers that would be playing full-pro cricket but not standing out. It is that simple imo.

Like in county cricket the stars would be negated by the 'fillers' and 'youngsters' to give the overall county experience, the same goes for franchise and 3-day challenge.

 

[marc71178]

Make your mind up. One minute you claim it is county-level then you say it isn't.

I think it's obvious which is the correct answer.

 

[Rasimione]

I dont know of over hyping of players in Rsa, but what i do know is that when it comes to fast bowlers, the cupboard is never really that bare. Test cricket is hard i agree but it the standard of players playing in domestic cricket aint so bad. IMO its just a matter of being given an opportunity, for instance De Lange has played few matches but was given an opportunity. England has given their players opportunity and they have come good. Had they failed we would not be even talking about their bench strength.

 

[MrPrez]

Make your mind up. One minute you claim it is county-level then you say it isn't.

I think it's obvious which is the correct answer.

What I'm saying that 3-day challenge cricket consists of players who would be lower-end county players. Together, the stats of a guy like Birch more or less plateaus as a true reflection.

 

[nexxus]

One huge problem SA will have in the near future is that for the 1st time, almost since re-admission, won't have a top class allrounder (or two) in the team. It'll be a team of 5 batsmen + a wk + Steyn (who is not much more than a good #10 or a poor #9) followed by a procession of pure #11's.

Except for Ryan McLaren, who turned out not to be worth the trouble all the parties took to extricate him from his Kolpak agreement, I can't think of a single all-rounder who'd even get close to selection, JP Duminy is actually the closest we have at the moment.

Terrifying thought.

 

[marc71178]

What I'm saying that 3-day challenge cricket consists of players who would be lower-end county players. Together, the stats of a guy like Birch more or less plateaus as a true reflection.

Why? By your own admission he picks up a lot of wickets against lower-end county players.

Seeing as county cricket has a lot of players, picking up a lot of lower end county players reflects in an overly-impressive average compared to ability.

3 day challenge cricket clearly skews players FC records considerably.

 

[Rasimione]

A chap called Chris Morris is showing alot of promise. Wayne Parnell is another one. All of them have to come into the side as bowling allrounders.. Its going to be hard for them very hard. But im betting on morris to feature in the next two yearz. Parnell needs to work on becoming a batsmen that can bowl. In ODI he wil do a job for you.

 

[Furball]

Have I missed something? Parnell is ****ing rubbish.

 

[slowfinger]

England are great end of.

 

[Debris]

One huge problem SA will have in the near future is that for the 1st time, almost since re-admission, won't have a top class allrounder (or two) in the team. It'll be a team of 5 batsmen + a wk + Steyn (who is not much more than a good #10 or a poor #9) followed by a procession of pure #11's.

Except for Ryan McLaren, who turned out not to be worth the trouble all the parties took to extricate him from his Kolpak agreement, I can't think of a single all-rounder who'd even get close to selection, JP Duminy is actually the closest we have at the moment.

Terrifying thought.

Why would you only pick 5 batsmen if none of the bowlers can bat? Logical way is to go with 6 batsmen and 4 bowlers and get one of the batsmen to roll his arm over for a few, IWHT

All-rounder is not that important, most of the great sides have not had one. You do need a couple of the bowlers to be able to hold a bat but at least a couple of the bowlers usually improve enough with a bit of practice. Don't see it as much of an issue for SA if the players are able to do their primary job well.