Vinay Kumar- leading Indian domestic seamer- what went wrong?

[Arjun]

Vinay Kumar has been one of India's best (possibly India's single best) seam-up bowler in the domestic scene. It's not a single season, but over sixty FC games spanning both state and zone sides, with prolific figures. Hardly a poor bowler, in comparison to every other bowler picked ahead of him outside of Zaheer-Ishant-Praveen, and he may even give Ishant a run for his money. He's also one of the most useful bowlers when not with the ball- and is a lot fitter than younger Indian bowlers. In fact, given the Indians' attempts to play Joginder Sharma and Jadeja as all-rounders, his domestic stats (fair, no hundreds, but he's got plenty of wickets) over the last three years would propel him into the race.

Yet, he's been stereotyped as a poor bowler, especially now, due to a horror Test at Perth, and in danger of losing his place to unproven rookies and one-season wonders. The reverse of what's wrong with struggling faster bowlers (pace isn't everything) comes up here, that pace is a must. Worse still, South Zone stereotypes are being invoked, with him as an example. Jokes fly left, right and centre, and Cricinfo hosted a sadistic article.

What do you think went wrong? Fair, lack of pace is a serious weakness on a flat pitch against a fiercely aggressive batsman, but it's not every day he'll have to face it- and he can work on it in time. The BCCI can surely help slower bowlers who bowl well add some pace, so that they can become productive bowlers for India. We find bowlers picked on age and hint of pace, struggle when they play for India- and haven't proven themselves even for their states. He's one bowler who's consistently got wickets, at least in domestic events, so he should be in the running. Not some injury-prone 22-year-olds.

What can he do? If he plays in leagues abroad, he will be aware of what's needed to succeed in those countries. With several Indian pacers prone to injury, he's got a chance to play more for India. Better still, since the team gave Yuvraj and Jadeja plenty of chances till they eventually came good, Vinay could do with a run that long.

[BoyBrumby]

I think Praveen has shown there's more to success than bowling at a decent lick, but when I've watched Vinay all I've seen is a straight up-and-down medium pacer who puts a little bit of shape on the ball. Praveen can, at least, hoop the cherry around the proverbial corner.

The comparison may be slightly invidious as Praveen bowled in more swing friendly conditions up here last summer, but he'd also put in a decent showing in the West Indies beforehand, which has been something of a seamers' graveyard of late.

Vinay might benefir from a season (or even a spell) in county cricket but, given his meagre returns, I struggle to see anyone taking a punt, especially when he'll miss six weeks or so by playing IPL.

[Prince EWS]

One thing's for sure - the decision to play him at Perth was one of the biggest WTF moments of selection I've seen. It wasn't in the league of Cameron White being retained as a specialist bowler - the second spinner - in a match Stuart Clark was dropped from, but it's up there.

I just can't imagine how someone could ever possibly think "Well Vinay Kumar isn't one of our best four or five fit bowlers, but the Perth conditions will suit him so we'll play him anyway"; he's probably the most unsuited Perth specialist of all time. The bloke is a short, skiddy medium pacer who looks to swing the new ball; his biggest frailties as a seamer are his lack of pace, seam movement and - most relevantly here - bounce. It was unfair of him to make him debut in Perth really because he was always going to just come on nicely and look awful relative to anyone else bowling on it. At home he'll be able to get a little more swing and get the ball to skid on off a length on wearing and/or low pitches so he should remain an option there, but playing him at Perth as a horses-for-courses selection of all things was the selection blunder of the tour.

Beyond that - yes he deserves his place ahead of a few others who have played lately and probably a few more who will play ahead of him in the future, but I really do think it's a case of him really specialising his fairly limited skill to the pitches at home against some poor batting lineups. There are 27 teams in the Ranji Trophy and frankly I don't care how strong and popular cricket is in India; that's definitely going to severely dilute the quality at times and you're going to get players who - quite rightly - take advantage of that. I'm a big advocate of domestic cricket in general and rewarding domestic performers but you do have to take it into context sometimes, and the fact that he averages almost 36 in Duleep Trophy when the quality is more congested and uniform does indicate a possible struggle at higher levels, as does the fact that he doesn't seem to visually possess the tools to trouble quality batsmen.

[Spark]

Harsha Bhogle wrote a good article about the dilution of talent in the Ranji Trophy a week ago IIRC.

[Z-Man]

Vinay Kumar and Bowler?

Vinay Kumar and Seam??

Vinay Kumar and BEST???

[lockton2skipper]

quite simple he's crap, praveen kumar on the other hand is a decent bowler.

[Bouncer]

Arjun, I do not follow the indian domestic cricket good enough to make any observation about the standard of crickt or standard of batting. I, like many others have heard Vinny’s name as a bowler who has done wonders in indian domestic scene – and I like many others have been very disappointed to see what he has done in the just a few International games that he has played.

Could it be that standards of batting have suffered from exposure of T20 and IPL cricket in domestic scene, I mean a good batsman who ten years ago would put a price on his wicket, wouldn’t mind seeing off a good spell, would try to play a longer inning, hoping to get noticed by national or zonal selectors. But now (with so much hype given to IPL),in his mind, his chances of getting noticed are better if he tries to score 23 ball 50 (even in indian 3 or 4 domestic games) and when does it in more than few games than even if he doesn’t get attention from national team selectors, but chances are that he might get noticed by some IPL team. So all of that might be resulting in people like Vinny getting wickets that 10 years ago they wouldn’t have gotten.

[Burgey]

I think you need to realise that India rarely produces seamers who are much chop, compared with other some other test playing countries.

[Jono]

I like Vinay, simply because he's toiled away for years in Ranji. Plus he plays for Karnataka and almost helped win them a title against bloody Mumbai.

He deserves his test spot because of his FC achievements, but its pretty clear he's a run below Praveen. I've seen Praveen swing the ball both ways in non-swing friendly conditions, something Vinay can't do.

I also get the feeling Praveen is just a smarter bowler in general.

[Burgey]

Originally Posted by Jono

I like Vinay, simply because he's toiled away for years in Ranji. Plus he plays for Karnataka and almost helped win them a title against bloody Mumbai.

He deserves his test spot because of his FC achievements, but its pretty clear he's a run below Praveen. I've seen Praveen swing the ball both ways in non-swing friendly conditions, something Vinay can't do.

I also get the feeling Praveen is just a smarter bowler in general.

That's because he's about 10 years older, notwithstanding what his published age is.

That or he's had a very hard life.

[Debris]

He just lacks the necessary talent for the step up in class, from what I have seen. I can think of any number of bowlers who were successful at first class level but were fairly obviously not up to test standard. The extra pressure and foreign conditions find them out.

[Daemon]

[sledger]

Turned out to be rubbish like all Indian seam bowlers. Next.

[thierry henry]

Big difference between Vinay bowling 125kph (Perth) and Vinay bowling 140kph (tonight) though tbf.

[Daemon]

The difference being he has no idea where the ball's going to land when he bowls at 140..