***Official*** South Africa in New Zealand 2012

[Flem274*]

Would prefer Boult tbh. Wagner on a bad day in a four man attack, assuming Marto retires (hope not) and Gillespie stays, would end very badly.

You can only really afford one mercurial bowler in a four man attack imo, and even that is pushing it if you have a containing bowler who isn't a big wicket taker as part of that attack Vettori).

[Flem274*]

Well, since then it's turned out that our bowling is as good as it's ever been so I don't think anyone has or will be saying that for a while.

Cue "Ronchi will save us"

Haha yeah.

Ronchi is someone I genuinely don't want to do well tbh. As a player who already has international caps, his move already ****s over national loyalty and screams opportunist far more than the uncapped and largely raw SA and Aussie players who have come over in years gone by.

Long may Kruger, Latham, Watling and de Boorder smoke first class runs.

[Prince EWS]

Haha yeah.

Ronchi is someone I genuinely don't want to do well tbh. As a player who already has international caps, his move already ****s over national loyalty and screams opportunist far more than the uncapped and largely raw SA and Aussie players who have come over in years gone by.

Long may Kruger, Latham, Watling and de Boorder smoke first class runs.

I view it kind of differently, myself. Ronchi was born in New Zealand and has always been a New Zealander; he has proper New Zealand heritage, he has a Maori tattoo, his team-mates have always considered him as "the Kiwi" and I've always thought of him as having a nationality of "Australia/New Zealand" in my own head. The fact that he chose Australia first and is now moving on to his second choice because he failed isn't really good for the game IMO, but it's better for the game than players with no real ties to their second choice country moving there as adults and gaining eligibility through residency. Van Wyk and Brownlie bother me more than Ronchi; the fact that the former two never played for their first choice countries doesn't change the fact that they were their first choice countries, and if they'd been able to, they would have. The key difference is that they just moved essentially at random while Ronchi at least has proper New Zealand ties before adulthood.

[Hurricane]

I view it kind of differently, myself. Ronchi was born in New Zealand and has always been a New Zealander; he has proper New Zealand heritage, he has a Maori tattoo,.

Makes me sold on him.

[Flem274*]

I view it kind of differently, myself. Ronchi was born in New Zealand and has always been a New Zealander; he has proper New Zealand heritage, he has a Maori tattoo, his team-mates have always considered him as "the Kiwi" and I've always thought of him as having a nationality of "Australia/New Zealand" in my own head. The fact that he chose Australia first and is now moving on to his second choice because he failed isn't really good for the game IMO, but it's better for the game than players with no real ties to their second choice country moving there as adults and gaining eligibility through residency. Van Wyk and Brownlie bother me more than Ronchi; the fact that the former two never played for their first choice countries doesn't change the fact that they were their first choice countries, and if they'd been able to, they would have. The key difference is that they just moved essentially at random while Ronchi at least has proper New Zealand ties before adulthood.

Ronchi has international caps. Brownlie, Elliott etc were reasonably young and complete unknowns when they moved. Elliott especially gets cleared of all charges because he was very average for a long time in the Shield and never buggered off to an even easier competition. Iirc even his initial test selection was pretty random.

Lots of people move to new countries as teenagers/early twenties, so I don't really have too many issues with the others, even if I only warm to them because they play for CD/are lovable/gun it for NZ, but Ronchi has ODI caps for Australia and rather than trying to get back in the Aussie side he's moved over here because it's probably a lot easier (though it could backfire if Haddin gets the flick and Kruger guns it).

I also really, really don't want to cop the jokes England get.

[Zinzan]

I had it in my head that it was soon too but looked it up the other day and is actually not til July/August. So we have quite a break after this current series.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/DO..._2011_2020.pdf

Cheers, hadn't checked the PDF.

[Prince EWS]

Ronchi has international caps. Brownlie, Elliott etc were reasonably young and complete unknowns when they moved. Elliott especially gets cleared of all charges because he was very average for a long time in the Shield and never buggered off to an even easier competition. Iirc even his initial test selection was pretty random.

Lots of people move to new countries as teenagers/early twenties, so I don't really have too many issues with the others, even if I only warm to them because they play for CD/are lovable/gun it for NZ, but Ronchi has ODI caps for Australia and rather than trying to get back in the Aussie side he's moved over here because it's probably a lot easier (though it could backfire if Haddin gets the flick and Kruger guns it).

I also really, really don't want to cop the jokes England get.

Brownlie and van Wyk moved for the same reason Ronchi did though; to have a crack at a higher level of cricket than their home system would grant them. That he has international caps is irrelevant IMO; it's the same thing.. only Ronchi actually had ties to New Zealand before he moved. Brownlie and van Wyk would've had international caps too if they were actually good enough to receive them during their time at home. "Moving because it's easier" is precisely what they did too.

Frankly I never like seeing someone play international cricket for one country when you know they'd have grown up wanting to play for another one, but Ronchi bothers me a lot less than the others who not only moved as adults and for cricketing reasons, but had no ties to the country in the first place.

[Mike5181]

Brownlie and van Wyk moved for the same reason Ronchi did though; to have a crack at a higher level of cricket than their home system would grant them. That he has international caps is irrelevant IMO; it's the same thing.. only Ronchi actually had ties to New Zealand before he moved. Brownlie and van Wyk would've had international caps too if they were actually good enough to receive them during their time at home. "Moving because it's easier" is precisely what they did too.

Frankly I never like seeing someone play international cricket for one country when you know they'd have grown up wanting to play for another one, but Ronchi bothers me a lot less than the others who not only moved as adults and for cricketing reasons, but had no ties to the country in the first place.

Not entirely true. Dean Brownlie's father was born in New Zealand that's why he made his first class debut in 2010 and was playing tests by 2011.

[Zinzan]

^ Pfft, they all come from the same hemisphere, what are we squabbling about....

[Neil Young]

Not entirely true. Dean Brownlie's father was born in New Zealand that's why he made his first class debut in 2010 and was playing tests by 2011.

Well Ronchi himself was born in NZ so surely that trumps Brownlie's old man. But they both came to NZ for the same reason; to play cricket at a higher level. Nowt about loyalty to our flag.

edti: Just realised your point but for me Brownlie and Ronchi are in the same boat. KVW and Elliot are different as they could well have moved for lifestyle reasons and not purely for cricket. Not sure.

[Flem274*]

One of the South Africans came here for uni iirc, but I'm not sure who.

Wagner moved because of the quota system apparently.

But yeah, skimming scarily close to England territory atm with Kruger, Brownlie and Wagner all likely to end up in the same team. All the homegrown players to get their acts together imo.

[Mike5181]

Well Ronchi himself was born in NZ so surely that trumps Brownlie's old man. But they both came to NZ for the same reason; to play cricket at a higher level. Nowt about loyalty to our flag.

edti: Just realised your point but for me Brownlie and Ronchi are in the same boat. KVW and Elliot are different as they could well have moved for lifestyle reasons and not purely for cricket. Not sure.

Yeah, I'm not comparing the two I was just pointing out that he has New Zealand blood in him. I sort of have respect for guys like Neil Wagner. I'm not sure if he has relatives over here or what but to just pack your bags at twenty two and decide to spend most likely the rest of your life in another country is pretty ballsy even if you are faced with limited opportunites in your home country.

Both Brownlie and Wagner have made significant improvements to their games since coming over here as well.

[Flem274*]

Brownlie must have, since mediocre club cricketers don't suddenly score fifties against the country of their birth on green tops overnight.

I forgive Brownlie for being Australian somewhat because watching him defy his home country who missed out on him was pretty funny.

Must have been a late bloomer.

[Howsie]

I view it kind of differently, myself. Ronchi was born in New Zealand and has always been a New Zealander; he has proper New Zealand heritage, he has a Maori tattoo, his team-mates have always considered him as "the Kiwi" and I've always thought of him as having a nationality of "Australia/New Zealand" in my own head. The fact that he chose Australia first and is now moving on to his second choice because he failed isn't really good for the game IMO, but it's better for the game than players with no real ties to their second choice country moving there as adults and gaining eligibility through residency. Van Wyk and Brownlie bother me more than Ronchi; the fact that the former two never played for their first choice countries doesn't change the fact that they were their first choice countries, and if they'd been able to, they would have. The key difference is that they just moved essentially at random while Ronchi at least has proper New Zealand ties before adulthood.

I was born in Australia, does that mean I've always been an Australian?

If Luke Ronchi had always seen himself as a Kiwi he should've moved back here when he was younger, not carved out a 10 year career for himself before jumping ship because he wasn't good enough. Take Daryl Mitchell. He moved over to Australia with his family as a teenager, played all his junior cricket in WA, was ingrained in the system over there, but moved back at 19 because he had no desire in playing for Australia.

Ronchi's situation annoys me the most, it just shouldn't be allowed to happen IMO. Van Wyk's much the same. I don't really have a problem with either Wagner nor Brownlie. Wagner in that he moved over here fairly young and has been asked on more then one occasion by CSA if he'd like to go back, so it's not a "I'm not good enough for my home country thing" like it is for your Van Wyk's and co.

[Howsie]

Brownlie must have, since mediocre club cricketers don't suddenly score fifties against the country of their birth on green tops overnight.

Or maybe he just slipped through the cracks? A player who wasn't a particularly gifted age group player who then suffered a few major injuries in his early 20's fails to get noticed is hardly an unbelievable story. Not as unbelievable as the other one anyway, club hack who then goes on to play international cricket in less then a year.