***Official*** South Africa in New Zealand 2012

[Flem274*]

Well, ND haven't opened with Flynn to give him some game time. Gagf Bradburn.

 

[Flem274*]

Vettori
McCullum
Flynn
Taylor (c)
Brownlie
Williamson
van Wyk (wk)
Bracewell
Gillespie
Boult
Martin

 

[BackFootPunch]

1.Martin Guptill
2.Daniel Flynn
3.Brendon McCullum
4.Ross Taylor (c)
5.Kane Williamson
6.Dean Brownlie
7.Daniel Vettori
8.Kruger Van Wyk+
9.Doug Bracewell
10.Mark Gillespie
11.Chris Martin

So if Brownlie scores runs that'll be the team.

Yup I agree that'll probably be what they go with. I just really, really hope we see the same Mark Gillespie two games in a row.

 

[Prince EWS]

As I said the other day, it seems a luxury for NZ to play five bowlers. Vettori's average of 30 is not good enough for the top six.

Vettori's average of 30 is dragged down by averaging about 14 for the first half of his career though. In his last 50 Tests - which is hardly just a flash in the pan type sample - he averages over 40. He's a batsman, or realistically given the other spin options in New Zealand, a batting allrounder, and he's perfectly qualified to bat in the top six for New Zealand. Definitely one of the best six batsmen in the country, and probably not one of the best four bowlers anymore.

 

[straw man]

Flynn going from middle order for ND to opening for NZ is not the ideal way to do things, but it could work providing a couple of things:
- He actually wants to be an opener. No Lou Vincent situation where he scores some runs at the top and later wants to go down the order.
- He's guaranteed a spot as opener on the Windies tour, even if he gets a pair v South Africa.
- There is recognition that he is being asked to do something difficult (come back from injury, bat middle order for ND and then get asked to open for NZ) and it might not work for a while. So we must be committed to structuring our batting order around him (ie. with McCullum at 3) for the foreseeable future.

 

[Flem274*]

Yeah Vettori needs to make a long term commitment to being a batting allrounder. I can't believe some sections in the media still think he can actually run through sides with the ball.

It's getting to the point where if we go in with three seamers, we're going in with three and a half bowlers. He's great at keeping the runs down, but that's about it.

 

[Flem274*]

Flynn going from middle order for ND to opening for NZ is not the ideal way to do things, but it could work providing a couple of things:
- He actually wants to be an opener. No Lou Vincent situation where he scores some runs at the top and later wants to go down the order.
- He's guaranteed a spot as opener on the Windies tour, even if he gets a pair v South Africa.
- There is recognition that he is being asked to do something difficult (come back from injury, bat middle order for ND and then get asked to open for NZ) and it might not work for a while. So we must be committed to structuring our batting order around him (ie. with McCullum at 3) for the foreseeable future.

Ideally Flynn would bat at three and our most successful opener since Richardson would suck it up and open.

This is the Bracewell era all over again. All we need now is to put our number nine at number three and we've got the exact same team structure.

 

[straw man]

1.Martin Guptill
2.Daniel Flynn
3.Brendon McCullum
4.Ross Taylor (c)
5.Kane Williamson
6.Dean Brownlie
7.Daniel Vettori
8.Kruger Van Wyk+
9.Doug Bracewell
10.Mark Gillespie
11.Chris Martin

So if Brownlie scores runs that'll be the team.

This is what I'd expect except that we are 1-0 down in the series and so should be targeting a win. So I don't know what they will do - the stuff article seems to suggest Brownlie is still a maybe so I guess him or Boult.

Even with the reinforced batting we're unlikely to force a draw so IMO we are right to target a win - ie. play Boult.

 

[Mike5181]

Vettori needs to improve his bowling drastically. I know he's been a great NZ player for the last decade+ but we need a lot more from him in that area.

 

[straw man]

Ideally Flynn would bat at three and our most successful opener since Richardson would suck it up and open.

This is the Bracewell era all over again. All we need now is to put our number nine at number three and we've got the exact same team structure.

Yes there's a certain echo from the past in getting a successful middle order player to open the batting. It could all go horribly wrong - Flynn fails and gets sent back to domestix for a few more years, or forever.

IMO if he wants to be opener then he has the mindset to be successful there. Technique I'm not so sure about (I should watch more clips from blackcaps website) though definitely seems to have gotten rid of that double-backswing thing he had last time played for NZ.

There's also the contrast between his previous stint as gritty slow-scorer for NZ and the domestix where he is known as more of a strokemaker - I don't know what approach we'll see when he opens for NZ.

Somewhat excited by this itbt.

 

[Mike5181]

I'll try upload a full Daniel Flynn innings from the Plunket Shield tonight but from what I've seen he has improved. I'm not sure how much of that will go out the window mentally when he has to face Philander and Steyn as an opener in a few days though. I definitely would've played him at 3 and moved McCullum into the openers role but if you really wanted to play him as an opener a better option would've been to include Boult to stay with four seamers + Vettori and you could drop Martin Guptill which would be justified by his average record as an opener in tests.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yes there's a certain echo from the past in getting a successful middle order player to open the batting. It could all go horribly wrong - Flynn fails and gets sent back to domestix for a few more years, or forever.

IMO if he wants to be opener then he has the mindset to be successful there. Technique I'm not so sure about (I should watch more clips from blackcaps website) though definitely seems to have gotten rid of that double-backswing thing he had last time played for NZ.

There's also the contrast between his previous stint as gritty slow-scorer for NZ and the domestix where he is known as more of a strokemaker - I don't know what approach we'll see when he opens for NZ.

Somewhat excited by this itbt.

I reckon if he wanted to be an opener he'd be opening for ND this season. He did it successfully last season and they've brought him back at 6 (now at 5 with Vettori gone) so Yovich of all people can open. If he made it known he wanted to open he'd probably be doing it already.

I've actually advocated Flynn as an opener quite a bit over the past year, but I wanted him to take the initiative and do it domestically first, then work his way into the side as an opener... not slap bowlers around at #6 and then get picked as an opener in the Test side, especially with McCullum at 3 (see previous rage). The latter is the New Zealand way though; selection never really makes complete sense.

 

[straw man]

I reckon if he wanted to be an opener he'd be opening for ND this season. He did it successfully last season and they've brought him back at 6 (now at 5 with Vettori gone) so Yovich of all people can open. If he made it known he wanted to open he'd probably be doing it already.

I've actually advocated Flynn as an opener quite a bit over the past year, but I wanted him to take the initiative and do it domestically first, then work his way into the side as an opener... not slap bowlers around at #6 and then get picked as an opener in the Test side, especially with McCullum at 3 (see previous rage). The latter is the New Zealand way though; selection never really makes complete sense.

Maybe, though it's also possible that Bradburn has decided Yovich has been doing it all season and so Flynn coming back from injury has to fit in wherever there's a spot. Hard to know the truth.

 

[Flem274*]

Bradburn can gagf. National side takes precedence.

 

[Prince EWS]

Bradburn can gagf. National side takes precedence.

Nah don't agree; if Bradburn really does think Yovich opening and Flynn at 5 is the best option for his side then that's what he should go with, although it does put question marks over the decision to open with Flynn in Tests.

 

[Flem274*]

I generally agree, but domestic coaches should do the national side, and their own player, a favour if required. The national side is more important than ND, CD etc

 

[Hurricane]

Why is Brownlie down the order for Cantabs.

 

[Hurricane]

I generally agree, but domestic coaches should do the national side, and their own player, a favour if required. The national side is more important than ND, CD etc

Flem is right - however - this also speaks to the competence of the selection panel. They should have phoned Bradburn and had a discussion with him about flynn opening. I am sure if asked he would accommodate.

 

[Briony]

Vettori's average of 30 is dragged down by averaging about 14 for the first half of his career though. In his last 50 Tests - which is hardly just a flash in the pan type sample - he averages over 40. He's a batsman, or realistically given the other spin options in New Zealand, a batting allrounder, and he's perfectly qualified to bat in the top six for New Zealand. Definitely one of the best six batsmen in the country, and probably not one of the best four bowlers anymore.

But wouldn't many of those been at #8?

And does anyone know officially how tall Kruger is?

 

[Ryan19]

But wouldn't many of those been at #8?

And does anyone know officially how tall Kruger is?

Surely if you can average 40 at 8 you should be able to do it at 6.