Kallis vs Sobers, Donald vs Steyn, Trott vs Pollock

[Jono]

Kallis has had too many years of being meh for me, regardless of what the numbers say.

What years?

On this topic, Kallis has come out and said he wants to go on til the 2015 World Cup. Presumably he will be playing test cricket (unless he loses the ability to play to a standard to make SA XI) until then too.

 

[benchmark00]

Ponting comfortably the better batsman than Kallis.

However I very much disagree with Burgey's opinion that Kallis is selfish, in particular in tests.

 

[Burgey]

For all the stats numpties doing loads over Kallis, why don't you say he's better than Lara? Averages more, plus Lara had a pretty long period of mediocrity in the late 90s.

 

[Furball]

So it's not how well you do overall, it's only the good parts that determine what a kick ass player you are?

Imho "all time greats" need to at least have some sort of consistency or quality over their whole, or certainly most of their career. Many batsmen have had a few good years. But to be talked of as "all time great" tends to imply quality all the way through. Or it's a fairly worthless term tbh

Every batsman is going to have their peaks and troughs.

For instance, if you remove all innings where Sachin Tendulkar has scored 100 or more, he averages a mere 33.22 over 256 innings.

 

[Burgey]

What years?

On this topic, Kallis has come out and said he wants to go on til the 2015 World Cup. Presumably he will be playing test cricket (unless he loses the ability to play to a standard to make SA XI) until then too.

Generally the years he toured here. Never so much as metaphorically high-fived a soul when he got out.

 

[Burgey]

Every batsman is going to have their peaks and troughs.

For instance, if you remove all innings where Sachin Tendulkar has scored 100 or more, he averages a mere 33.22 over 256 innings.

Tendulkar needs to think of his mile stone in terms of having scored 80 odd tons against opponents who aren't Zimbabwe, Bangladesh or Namibia. Will take a lot of pressure off him.

 

[kyear2]

How many times did Kallis have to open the bowling and carry his attack. Garry Sobers bowled Fast and at time genuinely so, he bolwed fast medium, chinamen and othrodox and he did it all All Out, and always gave it his all. Before Hall and Gilchrist (briefly) and Hall and Griffith, Sobers carried the bowling attack and at worse was the second of third option. How many times would Kallis come on to bowl and was ineffective and then then hurriedly taken off, Sobers for most of his career didn't have that luxury. Sobers in a strong batting era would at times be forced to bowl long spells just trying to keep the run rate down and to hold down an end, only to come back refreshed with the new ball to attack once again. Conversely he would at times also start the day with the new ball and later in the innings bowl spin as required. He didnt have the luxury of a Donald, Pollock, Ntini, Steyn or Morkell to consistently lead the attack, in fact there were times when Sobers opened the bowling with Frank Worrell (and if I am not mistaken the batting as well). Indeed in the last test Kallis didnt even have to bowl in the first innings, and be a support bowler in the second, Sobers was always either first, second or third option. He was asked to attack and also to restrain, all the while being the best batsman of his or any other generation. He was with out doubt the best batsman of his generation and widely acepted as onof the top five batsmen of all time, with respect to the great Kallis, he isnt even the greatest of his generation. He is behind, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting and possibly Dravid, he is a great support bolwer, but never the spear and while he is a safe and great slip fielder, Sobers was peerless everywhere on the field and particularly in close, watch some of his slip catches, he made opportunities not only taking them, Added to this he was a fearless, imaginative and under rated captain. Kallis is amazing and great, Sobers is in the Pantheon with Hobbs, Grace and the Don.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

For all the stats numpties doing loads over Kallis, why don't you say he's better than Lara? Averages more, plus Lara had a pretty long period of mediocrity in the late 90s.

I'd rather watch Mark Waugh bat than the lot of 'em. Do you reckon he's a better batsman than Kallis? Aesthetics and effectiveness are not the same thing.

I don't even particularly like Kallis, but the stick he gets is incredible and undeserved.

 

[Burgey]

I'd rather watch Mark Waugh bat than the lot of 'em. Do you reckon he's a better batsman than Kallis? Aesthetics and effectiveness are not the same thing.

I don't even particularly like Kallis, but the stick he gets is incredible and undeserved.

He doesn't get stick. He's a soulless accumulator and an effective one. He deserves respect for that, but as I said, I can't recall ever being worried he was going to hurt us. Fmd I used to worry more about Chris Cairns against us than I ever did Kallis.

 

[Spark]

He's much more than an accumulator nowadays. Took long enough though.

 

[Jarquis]

Kallis has had too many years of being meh for me, regardless of what the numbers say.

Got a century in each of the last 16 of them...

 

[Jarquis]

He doesn't get stick. He's a soulless accumulator and an effective one. He deserves respect for that, but as I said, I can't recall ever being worried he was going to hurt us. Fmd I used to worry more about Chris Cairns against us than I ever did Kallis.

Yeah but that's all entirely irrelevant, unless you're suggesting Chris Cairns is a better player because he worried you more?

 

[Furball]

Got a century in each of the last 16 of them...

Whoopdedoo.

I don't think it's a coincidence at all that the Aussies in particular, and to an extent the English fans, don't rate Kallis as highly as maybe he should be.

 

[benchmark00]

Whoopdedoo.

I don't think it's a coincidence at all that the Aussies in particular, and to an extent the English fans, don't rate Kallis as highly as maybe he should be.

I rate Kallis as the second best allrounder of all time, and I'm Australian.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

He doesn't get stick.

Pah. Soulless, selfish. And plenty of people say those things about him.

And you've said plenty about him not performing against Australia, who've consistently had the best bowling attack over his career. Shame we've not had the opportunity to see Ponting faced by that attack at his peak.

And GF: 7 centuries against England for Kallis not enoug?

 

[Burgey]

Yeah but that's all entirely irrelevant, unless you're suggesting Chris Cairns is a better player because he worried you more?

No, I'm saying a factor when comparing players who are supposedly of a similar level is whether they hurt you or not. I've never worried that Kallis will take a game away from Australia like a Tendulkar or a Lara (or indeed Sobers) has. It's just an opinion, but there we are.

 

[Burgey]

I rate Kallis as the second best allrounder of all time, and I'm Australian.

But you're an awful judge tbf.

 

[benchmark00]

But you're an awful judge tbf.

 

[Burgey]

Pah. Soulless, selfish. And plenty of people say those things about him.

And you've said plenty about him not performing against Australia, who've consistently had the best bowling attack over his career. Shame we've not had the opportunity to see Ponting faced by that attack at his peak.

And GF: 7 centuries against England for Kallis not enoug?

I don't see why this should be such a sore point when discussing him when every other **** in world cricket gets marked down if they don't perform on a dust bowl in India.

 

[Jarquis]

Whoopdedoo.

I don't think it's a coincidence at all that the Aussies in particular, and to an extent the English fans, don't rate Kallis as highly as maybe he should be.

Well when were these meh years? I can think of 2008..

And yeah, he's never done much over here but he did get runs in every Test of the 09/10 series. Should've gone some way to earning him some credit.

Can't think of much against Aus but seem to recall him getting runs in the 09 series in SA