Lillee vs Holding

[smash84]

The reason why I opened the Lillee and Imran thread was this, the batsmen who have a good record in SC(most of them being from India, Pak and SL) and not so good outside SC are underrated and they are labeled as Flat Track Bullies,
in that thread(Lillee and Imran thread), all of a sudden, people started posting that the subcontinent pitches are not that bad for fast bowling which was really shocking, if the pitches are not that bad for fast bowling, then why are players who have a better record in SC are labeled as FTBs.

SC pitches favour spinners most of the time and are not flat, there are some flat wickets, but then there are such wickets outside the SC aswell, subcontinent batsmen grow up playing on turning wickets, so they can play the spinners well even on dusty wickets, teams outside SC play on pitches with good bounce and swing, so they can play the best of the fast bowlers, I don't think batting is easy anywhere in the world, there are challenges everywhere, underrating someone because he doesn't have a good record in 1 or 2 countries is not right, and if it is right, than how is Lillee one of the greatest fast bowler?.

If Sehwag is labeled as a flat track bully than Lillee is a green top bully, its that simple.

and this one is for you :;p

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/2715441-post482.html

 

[Migara]

Agree partially. When Imran's home record is better than away record the argument is that bowlers should do better in home conditions than away. But same doesn't apply for the Holding vs Lillee thread. Double standards are difficult to hide.

 

[karan316]

and this one is for you :;p

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/2715441-post482.html

What you mean?

 

[kyear2]

The reason why I opened the Lillee and Imran thread was this, the batsmen who have a good record in SC(most of them being from India, Pak and SL) and not so good outside SC are underrated and they are labeled as Flat Track Bullies,
in that thread(Lillee and Imran thread), all of a sudden, people started posting that the subcontinent pitches are not that bad for fast bowling which was really shocking, if the pitches are not that bad for fast bowling, then why are players who have a better record in SC are labeled as FTBs.

SC pitches favour spinners most of the time and are not flat, there are some flat wickets, but then there are such wickets outside the SC aswell, subcontinent batsmen grow up playing on turning wickets, so they can play the spinners well even on dusty wickets, teams outside SC play on pitches with good bounce and swing, so they can play the best of the fast bowlers, I don't think batting is easy anywhere in the world, there are challenges everywhere, underrating someone because he doesn't have a good record in 1 or 2 countries is not right, and if it is right, than how is Lillee one of the greatest fast bowler?.

If Sehwag is labeled as a flat track bully than Lillee is a green top bully, its that simple.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough

 

[ankitj]

The reason why I opened the Lillee and Imran thread was this, the batsmen who have a good record in SC(most of them being from India, Pak and SL) and not so good outside SC are underrated and they are labeled as Flat Track Bullies,
in that thread(Lillee and Imran thread), all of a sudden, people started posting that the subcontinent pitches are not that bad for fast bowling which was really shocking, if the pitches are not that bad for fast bowling, then why are players who have a better record in SC are labeled as FTBs.

SC pitches favour spinners most of the time and are not flat, there are some flat wickets, but then there are such wickets outside the SC aswell, subcontinent batsmen grow up playing on turning wickets, so they can play the spinners well even on dusty wickets, teams outside SC play on pitches with good bounce and swing, so they can play the best of the fast bowlers, I don't think batting is easy anywhere in the world, there are challenges everywhere, underrating someone because he doesn't have a good record in 1 or 2 countries is not right, and if it is right, than how is Lillee one of the greatest fast bowler?.

If Sehwag is labeled as a flat track bully than Lillee is a green top bully, its that simple.

Gun post itbt.

 

[ankitj]

It must be said however that for most bowlers from outside SC, the sample sizes that we are looking at are very small. So unless there are qualitative reasons to believe that some of them simply don't have the 'skills' to bowl in sub-continent, it's safe to ignore those stats.

Also, I don't understand how anyone one can get the feeling that performance in SC is being given more weightage. People only bring it up for completeness of record.

 

[smash84]

What you mean?

I was just giving the example of that same mentality where the SC records are discounted.

 

[smash84]

The reason why I opened the Lillee and Imran thread was this, the batsmen who have a good record in SC(most of them being from India, Pak and SL) and not so good outside SC are underrated and they are labeled as Flat Track Bullies,
in that thread(Lillee and Imran thread), all of a sudden, people started posting that the subcontinent pitches are not that bad for fast bowling which was really shocking, if the pitches are not that bad for fast bowling, then why are players who have a better record in SC are labeled as FTBs.

SC pitches favour spinners most of the time and are not flat, there are some flat wickets, but then there are such wickets outside the SC aswell, subcontinent batsmen grow up playing on turning wickets, so they can play the spinners well even on dusty wickets, teams outside SC play on pitches with good bounce and swing, so they can play the best of the fast bowlers, I don't think batting is easy anywhere in the world, there are challenges everywhere, underrating someone because he doesn't have a good record in 1 or 2 countries is not right, and if it is right, than how is Lillee one of the greatest fast bowler?.

If Sehwag is labeled as a flat track bully than Lillee is a green top bully, its that simple.

FTR I do agree with a lot of what you have to say.

 

[karan316]

I was just giving the example of that same mentality where the SC records are discounted.

Ok, i got confused

 

[Burgey]

how does Waqar feature here?

There was a mention about the comparative ratings of Wasim and Waqar in post number 69.

 

[hang on]

On a general level, Especially in the 00s, I'd say performing in Australia is harder than performing in India due to the phenomenal batting line-up and the flat pitches. One of the biggest reasons I consider Macca the best bowler of the last two decades.

if by macca, u mean mcgrath, how does your argument actually work, given that the phenomenal batting lineup was his own team? especially since, on the bowling front, he also had wacca and gacca and lacca in his team.

 

[Jono]

What you have to do is traduce one player's legacy because he didn't perform in your part of the world in 3 or 4 tests, but make excuses for another's inability to do so in a different part of the world in three or four tours.

It's an art form, but one well practiced on this forum

India's the economic future of the world. Get used to it.

On that note, Lillee's record in China a tad disappointing too.

I agre with your point ftr.

 

[Slifer]

if by macca, u mean mcgrath, how does your argument actually work, given that the phenomenal batting lineup was his own team? especially since, on the bowling front, he also had wacca and gacca and lacca in his team.

 

[karan316]

India's the economic future of the world. Get used to it.

On that note, Lillee's record in China a tad disappointing too.

I agre with your point ftr.

No one is questioning Lillee's greatness here, but I think saying that he was better than the rest would be wrong considering what others have achieved in their career especially when Lillee's career is limited to matches played in 2 countries, Lillee was a great bowler, but I don't think rating him above other great bowlers would be a fair thing.
I won't agree that he is the 'best fast bowler ever'.
He was a great fast bowler, no doubt about it, but he is overrated at times, thats the main point here.

 

[Migara]

Greatest bowler in England and Australia

 

[smash84]

Greatest bowler in England and Australia

 

[abmk]

What you have to do is traduce one player's legacy because he didn't perform in your part of the world in 3 or 4 tests, but make excuses for another's inability to do so in a different part of the world in three or four tours.

It's an art form, but one well practiced on this forum

not quite applicable in the case of Lillee/Waqar.

Not many rate Waqar ahead of Lillee overall - only at their respective peaks maybe ...

Most would note Waqar's decline after his peak. They wouldn't even need to 'bring up' his performances in Aus considering that ....

 

[NasserFan207]

I voted Lillee, but five years ago I'd have said Holding. Robelinda changed my mind with his footage, had never really watched Lillee bowl till then.

 

[smash84]

I voted Lillee, but five years ago I'd have said Holding. Robelinda changed my mind with his footage, had never really watched Lillee bowl till then.

It is funny b/c Robelinda himself voted Holding

 

[NasserFan207]

It is funny b/c Robelinda himself voted Holding

Lol really, eye of the beholder then I guess

Both are two of my favourites though, gotta say