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Is Ewen Chatfield a better bowler than Chris Cairns? (tru story)

Is Ewen Chatfield a better bowler than Chris Cairns?


  • Total voters
    20

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Huh? Why is it an assumption that I am supposing my side is stronger?
Firstly, you're supposing that anything that makes a draw more likely is poor for the team overall. If you get outplayed then a draw is precisely what you want. Increasingly the likelihood of a draw is only bad for the team if it outplays the opposition, which only happens 50% to the average team in cricket.

Secondly, the idea that having more time will allow more runs to be scored only applies to teams that have batting lineups operating below optimal run output. Most teams usually operate at a pace with the bat that allows them to score the most runs they can; only good teams need worry about doing it quicker time as a) only such teams wouldn't just get bowled out before time and b) if the opposition plays better than you then the draw is a good result anyway.

I think you put waaaay too much emphasis on the time facet of Test cricket, perhaps because you've largely followed such an awesome team that it seemed so much greater a concern than the chance of the opposition outplaying you.
 
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Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Cairns and not really close IMO.
Would agree with this. However, disagree with the idea that it is impossible for Bowler A to be a better bowler in FC cricket than Bowler B and yet Bowler B is a better Test bowler.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Firstly, you're supposing that anything that makes a draw more likely is poor for the team overall. If you get outplayed then a draw is precisely what you want. Increasingly the likelihood of a draw is only bad for the team if it outplays the opposition, which only happens 50% to the average team in cricket.
Yes, but you do not know that a draw is on the cards until you're into the match. One may say in a situation where in a match a draw becomes desirable that Tavare would be of more use than Tendulkar; but who would actually pick him over Tendulkar ahead of the match?

Secondly, the idea that having more time will allow more runs to be scored only applies to teams that have batting lineups operating below optimal run output. Most teams usually operate at a pace with the bat that allows them to score the most runs they can; only good teams need worry about doing it quicker time as a) only such teams wouldn't just get bowled out before time and b) if the opposition plays better than you then the draw is a good result anyway.
Disagree. That thought fails to take into account that at varying points in matches batsmen may slow down, minimise risk, in turn to score more runs. No one scores in a linear fashion. Conversely, often, time restrictions may force them to score faster than they'd like to; so having a bowling attack that naturally buys you more time means less risk can be taken because of such a bowling attack.

I think you put waaaay too much emphasis on the time facet of Test cricket, perhaps because you've largely followed such an awesome team that it seemed so much greater a concern than the chance of the opposition outplaying you.
Not really. Even a team like Bangladesh would benefit from such an output. To lose half a session to save 4 runs and take a wicket once every 6 innings (~0.17) is not a great trade off for any team - unless time was plentiful and runs incredibly scarce. If a draw is what is desired; then you are talking about draws where the game would have had a result but for 4 runs and 14 overs. As I said, such matches don't arise often enough to make the choice of Chatfield over Cairns viable in the grand scheme of things - even as 4th bowlers go. Furthermore, in a team where 3 bowlers are striking at 36 a draw is not on the cards; hence that point is rendered somewhat irrelevant. As through the construction of that scenario to get Chatfield into the team in the first place it renders that result incredibly incredibly unlikely.

There are far more, and more realistic, scenarios where having Cairns as a 3rd/4th bowler is important. I take your point and even think it's right - for that scenario - but it does not mean I think overall it is important/prevalent enough to come into one's consideration.

On this point, you'll change my mind when you show me that it occurs far more than I think it does - which I don't think you can, and that's not said to be haughty.
 
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Furball

Evil Scotsman
An expensive wicket-taker isn't always the answer. See England's selection for the 4th and 5th Tests - Bresnan complimented Anderson and Tremlett far more than Finn did at Perth. He's also the best 3rd option for England if Anderson and Broad are the top 2.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Is the above comparable? Cairns is 3 points cheaper per wicket and strikes 31 balls faster.
 

Outswinger@Pace

International 12th Man
This thread is not entirely fair to Chatfield because he did what was required of him quite brilliantly.

Hadlee and Chatfield could be called a poor man's pairing of Trueman and Statham in some ways. By no means was Ewen as potent as Statham, but he was the straight man of the attack for a legendary fast/swing bowler bowling from the other end.

Between Chatfield and Cairns, the younger Kiwi was the more capable bowler. His fitness let him down big time, but when available and on song, he could shoulder the attack and had enough pace, mastery of seam, versatility and skill to run through quality line-ups. Chatfield was a very honest trier, super accurate and a very good foil for Hadlee. His contribution to New Zealand cricket was immense but for sheer match-winning ability, Cairns takes the cake for mine.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend

Outswinger@Pace

International 12th Man
Good work! Chatfield just played 4 tests without Hadlee and you've mentioned 3 of them.

In the other 39 tests of his career that he played with Hadlee, this is what his record looks like.

My personal opinion is that 4 tests (spread sporadically over a long time period) is a very small sample size to deduce anything meaningful.



EDIT: Ikki's link is more relevant. And thanks for showing me that the 'not including player' query exists in stasguru. It's a welcome piece of info!
 
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HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Ah. I see I missed one - his very first test. Which to me is a real outlier, and it was rightfully two years before he played his next test. Even including that test, he still performed statistically better without Hadlee.

Mind you, the sample size is so small, I don't think I can justify anything based on it.

And very useful to see you can query in that way on Cricinfo. If only I'd known earlier!!

Either way, I'm still of the opinion that Cairns is not that far superior to Chatfield that you would select him as a matter of course. To me, it would depend on what you need in your attack. This current NZ side would clearly love someone with the wicket taking ability of Cairns (mind you, I think either would be superior to the shower that currently parades as the NZ bowling 'attack')
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
cairns clearly a better bowler in terms of talent...chatfield the more consistent one...
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
It's really an apples and oranguntans argument isn't it?

Cairns=strike bowler
Chatfield=line and length, container, foil to Hadlee, wicket-taker in right conditions.
 

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