Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 109

Thread: What makes a good bowler?

  1. #1
    World Traveller Craig's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Super Happy Fun Sugar Lollipop Land!
    Posts
    34,131

    What makes a good bowler?

    I will do one for seam bowlers. I will let Richard do the one for spinners as I will cover what I think makes a good Test bowler. This has come across to try and work out Marc's reasoning that Flintoff was England's best bowler against South Africa.

    Here is what I believe makes a good Test bowler:

    Swing the ball both ways or be able to bowl a good outswinger or a good inswinger, a good seam position, patience, accuracy, pitches the ball up rather then banging it in short (you have better chances of getting wickets of proper balls), able to get cut both ways and if possible - able to bowl reverse swing.

    Now Marc, does your beloved Flintoff have all of these qualities?

    Debate on.
    Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever...

    RIP Fardin Qayyumi, a true legend of CW

    Quote Originally Posted by Boobidy View Post
    Bradman never had to face quicks like Sharma and Irfan Pathan. He wouldn't of lasted a ball against those 2, not to mention a spinner like Sehwag.

  2. #2
    Hall of Fame Member luckyeddie's Avatar
    Target Champion! Stuarts Xtreme Skateboarding Champion!
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Derby, England
    Posts
    17,752
    I'll chip in here because like most people, you have missed the point. What makes a good bowler is quite simple - the ability to do precisely what a batsman doesn't want him to do.
    Nigel Clough's Black and White Army, beating Forest away with 10 men

  3. #3
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Mr Mxyzptlk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Trinidad and Tobago (Trinidad)
    Posts
    36,795

    Re: What makes a good bowler?

    Originally posted by Craig
    pitches the ball up rather then banging it in short (you have better chances of getting wickets of proper balls)
    As much as I hate having another 'ideal bowler' debate thread, I just can't resist commenting.

    Pitching the ball up is not always effective and doesn't necessarily give a better chance of wicket at all. It very much depends on the pitch, the conditions and the ability of a bowl to bowl short. Look at the England v WI series in 2000. When England did the orthodox and pitched the ball up and on a length, WI dominated. However, when England began to knock it in at the ribs, the West Indies batsmen had no response. That's because it was thoughtful and well executed.
    Sreesanth said, "Next ball he was beaten and I said, 'is this the King Charles Lara? Who is this impostor, moving around nervously? I should have kept my mouth shut for the next ball - mind you, it was a length ball - Lara just pulled it over the church beyond the boundary! He is a true legend."


  4. #4
    International Debutant iamdavid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,112
    Ahh but Craig you forget the most important quality for any bowler at any level , attitude , the attitude required to regardless of what happens just turn on you're heels & runs in time after time , to bowl 30 backbreaking overs in a day only to do it all again tommorrow , the will to die on the wicket if need be all for the good of you're country , no bowler , no matter whats his talents will succed at test level without the right attitude , Denis Lillee had it , Alan Donald had it , Jason Gillespie has it , Matthew Hoggard has it & yes even Andrew Flintoff has it.

    Work ethic is every bit as important as pace or swing.

    As for the technical side of things I reckon that accuracy is by far the most important attribute , being really quick is over-rated , quick bowlers are generally alright in ODI's & at test level you might notice they shake the batsmen up alot generally everyone hates facing them , but they dont really get quality top order players out alot , (Im refering to the more erratic Lee , Akhtar , Harmison type of bowler here rather than the Ambrose , Marshall thyp of bowler, they were more patient & accurate).
    I reckon generally if you put it in the right place 9 times out of 10 & move it around a bit (both ways) you will take a few wickets at whatever level you play (ala McGrath).

    The Australian's regularly stress the importance of the three P's-
    Pressure
    Patience
    Partnerships
    This certainly refers to bowling as much as batting.

    Denis Lillee says the qualities he looks for in a young bowler are the attitude , hunger & commitment , fitness & and a nice uncomplicated action , the less complicated the less things can go wrong.


  5. #5
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Mr Mxyzptlk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Trinidad and Tobago (Trinidad)
    Posts
    36,795
    Originally posted by iamdavid
    to bowl 30 backbreaking overs in a day only to do it all again tommorrow
    30 overs a day?? That must be an extremely ineffective pace attack!

  6. #6
    World Traveller Craig's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Super Happy Fun Sugar Lollipop Land!
    Posts
    34,131
    Of course pace isnt everything, as Imran Khan once said "what is the point in being having all the pace in the world if you cant control it?"

    For me, if you go what LE just said, I would love to know Flintoff is as good of a bowler as marc say's he is. Sometimes I wonder he goes too far.

  7. #7
    State 12th Man godofcricket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Lahore, Pakistan
    Posts
    724
    Well sometimes i think Mcgrath isn't the best bowler, because hes only got a good and accurate line(i know thats a big advantage and a huge factor), keeps pitching the ball at the same spot, tell me how can it make a batsman in danger?? Good batsman can spot the line hes bowling at and can take advantage of it by comming down the ground or changing there tactics against him. Thats why Mcgrath and others with the same quality can never be useful in the final overs or sometimes in the initial overs. Please give me ur suggestions on it.

  8. #8
    U19 12th Man JohnnyA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Belfast NI
    Posts
    241
    Adaptability is the key. Malcolm Marshall was the master of this:

    1. Be able to bowl accurately at different paces, and in different locations around the off stump. Be able to put the ball exactly were you want it 90% of the time. Adapt this to the conditions.

    2. Seams it when it's seaming.

    3. Swing it when it's swinging

    4. Cut it when its cutable ... or when the pitch is flat and all else fails (see Pollock and McGrath)

    5. Reverse it when conditions suit.

    A good fast / fast medium bowler would be able to do all these things at will. Sure, some will be better than others at certain aspects. But for me, it's really unprofessional if a test match fast bowler is not able to do at least 4 of these 5 attributes ... especially reducing / adjusting their pace and cutting the ball ... since most test piches are flat, this is a necessary attribute for taking wickets in batter friendly conditions IMHO.

    Jon
    EMAIL: johnnya24@yahoo.co.uk

  9. #9
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    2005
    Posts
    80,401
    JohnnyA - couldn't agree more. Do whatever you can whenever it's possible to do it, and Malcolm was surely the best ever at doing that.
    RD
    Appreciating cricket's greatest legend ever - HD Bird...............Funniest post (intentionally) ever.....Runner-up.....Third.....Fourth
    (Accidental) founder of Twenty20 Is Boring Society. Click and post to sign-up.
    chris.hinton: h
    FRAZ: Arshad's are a long gone stories
    RIP Fardin Qayyumi (AKA "cricket player"; "Bob"), 1/11/1990-15/4/2006

  10. #10
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    2005
    Posts
    80,401
    Originally posted by iamdavid
    Ahh but Craig you forget the most important quality for any bowler at any level , attitude , the attitude required to regardless of what happens just turn on you're heels & runs in time after time , to bowl 30 backbreaking overs in a day only to do it all again tommorrow , the will to die on the wicket if need be all for the good of you're country , no bowler , no matter whats his talents will succed at test level without the right attitude , Denis Lillee had it , Alan Donald had it , Jason Gillespie has it , Matthew Hoggard has it & yes even Andrew Flintoff has it.

    Work ethic is every bit as important as pace or swing.

    As for the technical side of things I reckon that accuracy is by far the most important attribute , being really quick is over-rated , quick bowlers are generally alright in ODI's & at test level you might notice they shake the batsmen up alot generally everyone hates facing them , but they dont really get quality top order players out alot , (Im refering to the more erratic Lee , Akhtar , Harmison type of bowler here rather than the Ambrose , Marshall thyp of bowler, they were more patient & accurate).
    I reckon generally if you put it in the right place 9 times out of 10 & move it around a bit (both ways) you will take a few wickets at whatever level you play (ala McGrath).

    The Australian's regularly stress the importance of the three P's-
    Pressure
    Patience
    Partnerships
    This certainly refers to bowling as much as batting.

    Denis Lillee says the qualities he looks for in a young bowler are the attitude , hunger & commitment , fitness & and a nice uncomplicated action , the less complicated the less things can go wrong.
    david, attitude and commitment is less important than the basic skills. If you've got the skills and not the attitude, you'll still have success some of the time, just not as often as you should.
    If you've got the attitude and not the skill you won't often be succesful and you'll get a lot of groin injuries, as Flintoff exemplifies so well.

  11. #11
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    2005
    Posts
    80,401
    Originally posted by godofcricket
    Well sometimes i think Mcgrath isn't the best bowler, because hes only got a good and accurate line(i know thats a big advantage and a huge factor), keeps pitching the ball at the same spot, tell me how can it make a batsman in danger?? Good batsman can spot the line hes bowling at and can take advantage of it by comming down the ground or changing there tactics against him. Thats why Mcgrath and others with the same quality can never be useful in the final overs or sometimes in the initial overs. Please give me ur suggestions on it.
    I've thought the same thing for about 2 years; some people dispute that McGrath doesn't move the ball, and I'll be able to check this out soon.

  12. #12
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    2005
    Posts
    80,401

    Re: Re: What makes a good bowler?

    Originally posted by Mr Mxyzptlk
    As much as I hate having another 'ideal bowler' debate thread, I just can't resist commenting.

    Pitching the ball up is not always effective and doesn't necessarily give a better chance of wicket at all. It very much depends on the pitch, the conditions and the ability of a bowl to bowl short. Look at the England v WI series in 2000. When England did the orthodox and pitched the ball up and on a length, WI dominated. However, when England began to knock it in at the ribs, the West Indies batsmen had no response. That's because it was thoughtful and well executed.
    Phenominal game that - and in it England (Caddick esp.) were succesful with the old West Indian strategy of bang-it-in, Ambrose and Walsh with the English tack of pitch-it-up-seam-it.
    However, looking at the second-innings wickets:
    Campbell cuts Caddick to third-man. Poor stroke to a poor ball.
    Hinds is given out when hit on the shoulder and the helmet.
    Griffith is caught by Stewart of a Gough leg-cutter.
    Lara is caught at gully off Caddick by one that seams away.
    Chanderpaul is again given out incorrectly.
    Jacobs is caught at slip off Caddick's scrambled-seam ball.
    Adams is trapped lbw by Cork's inswinger.
    Ambrose is caught off the gloves by Ramprakash for a third time.
    Rose chips one from Cork that holds up on the pitch.
    King is trapped lbw hitting across the line.
    That innings might have been charecterised by Caddick banging it in, but only one wicket (and two more thanks to Umpiring error) were actually from short-balls.

  13. #13
    U19 12th Man JohnnyA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Belfast NI
    Posts
    241

    Re: Re: Re: What makes a good bowler?

    Originally posted by Richard
    Phenominal game that - and in it England (Caddick esp.) were succesful with the old West Indian strategy of bang-it-in, Ambrose and Walsh with the English tack of pitch-it-up-seam-it.
    However, looking at the second-innings wickets:
    Campbell cuts Caddick to third-man. Poor stroke to a poor ball.
    Hinds is given out when hit on the shoulder and the helmet.
    Griffith is caught by Stewart of a Gough leg-cutter.
    Lara is caught at gully off Caddick by one that seams away.
    Chanderpaul is again given out incorrectly.
    Jacobs is caught at slip off Caddick's scrambled-seam ball.
    Adams is trapped lbw by Cork's inswinger.
    Ambrose is caught off the gloves by Ramprakash for a third time.
    Rose chips one from Cork that holds up on the pitch.
    King is trapped lbw hitting across the line.
    That innings might have been charecterised by Caddick banging it in, but only one wicket (and two more thanks to Umpiring error) were actually from short-balls.
    Yeah, but it's not always the short ball that takes the wicket ... but that's not to say it didn't cause the wicket.

    Reapeated short of a length bowling makes the fuller pitched ball all the more deadly. It's hard to tell just by looking at the actual dismissals. Good bowlers set up the batsman. A rash shot or misplayed ball is often the consquence of good pressure and build up bowling.
    Last edited by JohnnyA; 25-10-2003 at 06:21 AM.

  14. #14
    U19 12th Man JohnnyA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Belfast NI
    Posts
    241
    Originally posted by Richard
    I've thought the same thing for about 2 years; some people dispute that McGrath doesn't move the ball, and I'll be able to check this out soon.
    MaGrath plays to his limitations brilliantly:

    He adjusts his pace very subtley.
    He's tall and bowls from a great angle stump to stump.
    He adjusts his line ... moving in and out outside the off stump, much like a baseball pitcher controlling the inside and outside of the plate.
    He always maintains pressure.
    He can cut he ball either way.
    He can reverse-swing the ball.
    He has a great short pitched delivery that is always 5 mph faster than normal.
    He can bowl long spells because he has the most economical and mechanically sound action in world cricket (hence few injuries) ...
    He's the perfect 80 mph bowler

    Jon

  15. #15
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    2005
    Posts
    80,401
    Now, Craig - a few points before I do one for spinners.
    1, it's not just Test-cricket, it's all First-Class-cricket. Indeed it's also any cricket of limitless overs - Grade Cricket included.
    2, as has recently been pointed-out, you can only swing a ball when it's in the right condition (hoop it conventionally when it's shiny enough, reverse it when it's reversing) but a good bowler simply has to be able to do both. Off-cutters and leg-cutters are effective on any surface but there's no need for them if the wicket is seaming, as they're harder to bowl than simply getting the seam straight and it's easier to misdirect.
    3, without a good seam-position you're not going to swing a Kookaburra ball, and you're not going to seam any ball as often as you would. The reason a Kookaburra ball encourages better bowling habits is that you've got to get the seam absolutely straight. A Duke ball will swing if the seam's just roughly perpendicular.
    4, finally, no-one will recognise this. If you discuss bowling, especially these days, the first word on any supposed sage will be 90 mph pace. If you can bowl at 90 mph as supposed to 80 (or 145 ks as supposed to 130), you will automatically be classed above the rest.
    Sideways-movement is almost always the last thing to come to the mind of almost any credit for "good" bowling. There really is a fixation amongst cricket sages about pace ATM. Especially, it seems, in England.
    Now, what makes a good spinner in limitless-over cricket?
    IMO, it is this.
    First of all, what is a "spinner"? In all honesty, it is simply someone who generally bowls at about 50 mph.
    The first and foremost neccesity for a spinner is the ability to turn the ball. If you can't turn the ball, you're highly unlikely to be effective. The simple physics of the human body dictates that to spin the ball with your fingers doesn't impart enough spin to turn the ball except on what I regard as an extravagent pitch. Hence, a fingerspinner, even if he bowls a "doosra" as Saqlain and Harbhajan do, simply cannot be effective (given competant batting) except on pitches typical to most subcontinent and West Indian grounds, Wantage Road, Sophia Gardens, The SCG and Basin Reserve.
    So, to turn the ball sufficiently on any surface, you need to spin the ball with your wrists. Most bowlers who have done this down the years have had problems with dragging the ball down about every other over. The exceptions have been Sydney Barnes, Clarrie Grimmett, William J. O'Reilly, Richie Benaud and Abdul Qadir.
    Recently, we have had 4 wristspinners who haven't had this problem. Their names have been Kumble, Warne, Mushtaq Ahmed and Muralitharan. Murali is not by any standards an orthodox wristspinner, neither is Kumble. Kumble isn't really that good a Test bowler except on extravagant surfaces, but he is much quicker than most spinners.
    However, there are other attributes that contribute to the skill of a slow-bowler. None of them make-up for the lack of ability to turn the ball, but they do all conpliment turn very well if you can do them.
    The first is what is known as "drift". Drift for a spinner is similar to swing for a seamer, though not exactly the same as swing can be effective without seam. It is simply the movement of the ball through the air. Like swing, the later it moves, the better. Whereas swing is achieved by a good seam-position and well-placed shine on the ball, a ball will drift if you flight it in a certain way and is certainly exaggerated by wind speed and direction. The arm must be slightly angled at delivery for a ball to drift and the best spinners vary slightly their arm angle to vary drift.
    Loop is another technique used by spinners. There is no equivalent for seamers. It is simply the ball dipping just before pitching, so ending-up a shorter delivery than the batsmen has first thought. It is especially useful if you can draw the batsman into a drive to what he thinks is a Half-Volley but ends-up just short enough to catch the edge with turn. Loop is achieved simply by lobbing the ball up into the air with less pace than normal. It's not the most complex of techniques, but it still takes nous to know when to do it.
    Finally, a point on all bowling:
    It is all very well to be able to move the ball in any way you like, and to be able to hit a spot you're aiming at 19 times out of 20. But you still need to know when to bowl which length, and when to move the ball and when to keep it straight. Often, people make the mistake of saying "that's inexperienced bowling" when someone bowls a certain delivery. Often, it is simply that they have been trying to bowl something and it's come out wrong. It is an insult to the nous of a bowler to suggest he doesn't know what to bowl.

Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •