Swing and Seam

[shankar]

Hoggy developed a pretty decent off-cutter in the mid-latter part of his test career too. Famously only swung it the one way and was more adept with the new ball than the old, but his variation meant he did rather well in the sub-continent, which one wouldn't necessarily have guessed beforehand. Averaged something like 23 in India.

He did well in the 2006 series because he reverse-swung it on some abrasive pitches. In the 2001 series he did well in the Bangalore match where the conditions were perfect for swing (conventional).

 

[Xuhaib]

over the last few years have seen Anderson and Asif do it quite consistently think even Broad is doing this in this series. The biggest challenge must be singing the ball both ways on the same delivery U think there is youtube video of Akram doing it also remember Waqar once getting Haynes bowled with a ball that swung in and out.

 

[benchmark00]

Yeah, I'm largely in line with what Goughy says. Keeping the seam up and bowling a line to allow for the chance of seam movement the other way is the usual thing these days. Guys who bowl with big cut are a bit of an anomaly and I don't really know why. Craig McDermott is a great example of a bloke who could always swing the ball away but became genuinely dangerous when he started bringing the occasional ball back in. Means the decision about whether to leave or play has to be made much later.

Guys get taught these days to just focus on keeping the seam upright because it allows for both swing and the possibility of seam movement, whereas your genuine cutters cancelled out the possibility of swing.

There's not doubt in recent times in Australia, especially since the 2005 Ashes, there's a massive preoccupation with swinging the ball opposed to getting genuine cut on the ball.

A guy who actually varied it a bit a few years back here was Tim Southee. Would swing it then roll his fingers across every now and again and get it to keep its line. Was really dangerous actually.

 

[benchmark00]

over the last few years have seen Anderson and Asif do it quite consistently think even Broad is doing this in this series. The biggest challenge must be singing the ball both ways on the same delivery U think there is youtube video of Akram doing it also remember Waqar once getting Haynes bowled with a ball that swung in and out.

It's not actually that difficult to swing the ball both ways, it's all reliant on your arm position at the point of delivery.

If you're a natural outswing bowler, if you get your arm up even higher (to the point where it's past your ear) you then create the angle which is conducive to in swing bowling.

Ofcourse that's the general way, but it's largely down to your action as to which way you naturally swing the ball.

 

[Top_Cat]

Guys get taught these days to just focus on keeping the seam upright because it allows for both swing and the possibility of seam movement, whereas your genuine cutters cancelled out the possibility of swing.

Yeah I get that as far as early career bowlers go. But I guess what I'm having a go at is that it seems unfashionable to even bowl cutters as they get older which seems a bit weird to me when just about every top bowler has to eventually. The current crop of Aussie quicks seem more interested in gaining 5Km/h than working at moving the ball off the straight when conditions aren't in their favour. And if they are, it's a decent weapon to have in the armoury anyway. At worst, it gives you something to put on the ball if it's a bright sunny day on a road.

Have to shelve your ego a bit and bowl a bit within yourself to really nail bowling decent cutters, which is why it takes a long time to develop (weird grip, can't bowl too quick or the ball will just skim off the surface instead of biting into it, etc.). I dunno, I haven't played grade cricket for years so I'm a bit out of the loop as to what trends are at that level but I haven't seen many of the international blokes try it regularly so maybe, as I said, it's just out of fashion.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

over the last few years have seen Anderson and Asif do it quite consistently think even Broad is doing this in this series. The biggest challenge must be singing the ball both ways on the same delivery U think there is youtube video of Akram doing it also remember Waqar once getting Haynes bowled with a ball that swung in and out.

How is it even possible to swing the ball both ways in one single delivery?

 

[Z-Man]

over the last few years have seen Anderson and Asif do it quite consistently think even Broad is doing this in this series. The biggest challenge must be singing the ball both ways on the same delivery U think there is youtube video of Akram doing it also remember Waqar once getting Haynes bowled with a ball that swung in and out.

Post of the Year.

 

[Migara]

Yes, though none of those are off/leg cutters, where the fingers are intentionally rolled over one side of the ball. No one is arguing that after a ball swings, it can't hit the seam and move away or into the batsmen. That happens all the time.

If you are discussing fast off breaks and leg breaks to go with the swing yes I agree with you. This is the very reason I don't rely much on old cricket terminology. According to cricket pundits, Barnes swung and spun the ball, which is rank bull****. He would have drifted it and spun it at pace but swing with spin is impossible. A top spinner or a back spinner may swing, but both won't turn much. (Anil Kumble swung a few of this top spinners in 1994 SL tour, but seam was gun barrel straight, and so were the direction after pitching)

 

[zaremba]

A ball that's got sideways spin imparted will tend to curve one way in the air and then cut back off the pitch in the opposite direction. Hence a leggie getting in-drift, and an offie getting a curve towards off. In The Art of Cricket Bradman referred to this as "swerve".

A ball that's bowled to swing - with the seam angled and stabilised by the backwards rotation of the ball - may hit the seam and move in a more or less random way. It could swing one way in the air and go even further that way off the pitch, or it could swing one way and seam the other. It can be absolutely bloody lethal - see this example by Terry Alderman v John Stephenson in 1989.

From what I've read of SF Barnes he bowled the first kind of ball (basically quickish legspin) - and perhaps also the second, although I have my doubts - but as Migara says he wouldn't have bowled both in the one ball.

Edit: re-reading Migara's post, it is certainly also possible that a spinning delivery will also be affected by swing, depending on the angle of the seam. So if you bowl leggies with a bit of topspin, the seam is likely to be angled towards slip which could produce some out-swing. However because this is in the opposite direction to the natural swerve of the spinning ball, you'd be likely overall to see less rather than more movement due to the swing.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

So is it possible to swing the ball both ways in a single delivery, as Xuhaib mentioned?

 

[Spark]

It's not actually that difficult to swing the ball both ways, it's all reliant on your arm position at the point of delivery.

If you're a natural outswing bowler, if you get your arm up even higher (to the point where it's past your ear) you then create the angle which is conducive to in swing bowling.

Ofcourse that's the general way, but it's largely down to your action as to which way you naturally swing the ball.

I think he was talking about getting both inswing and outswing on the same delivery (at different stages ofc).

I've only ever heard of Akram being able to do it.

 

[smash84]

I think Xuhaib is talking about this delivery but I don't think it swung in the air. Just came in with the angle and went out with the swing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyXDytrsS9E

 

[Migara]

A ball that's got sideways spin imparted will tend to curve one way in the air and then cut back off the pitch in the opposite direction. Hence a leggie getting in-drift, and an offie getting a curve towards off. In The Art of Cricket Bradman referred to this as "swerve".

A ball that's bowled to swing - with the seam angled and stabilised by the backwards rotation of the ball - may hit the seam and move in a more or less random way. It could swing one way in the air and go even further that way off the pitch, or it could swing one way and seam the other. It can be absolutely bloody lethal - see this example by Terry Alderman v John Stephenson in 1989.

From what I've read of SF Barnes he bowled the first kind of ball (basically quickish legspin) - and perhaps also the second, although I have my doubts - but as Migara says he wouldn't have bowled both in the one ball.

Edit: re-reading Migara's post, it is certainly also possible that a spinning delivery will also be affected by swing, depending on the angle of the seam. So if you bowl leggies with a bit of topspin, the seam is likely to be angled towards slip which could produce some out-swing. However because this is in the opposite direction to the natural swerve of the spinning ball, you'd be likely overall to see less rather than more movement due to the swing.

 

[smash84]

I think he was talking about getting both inswing and outswing on the same delivery (at different stages ofc).

I've only ever heard of Akram being able to do it.

I think the 1999 WC group stage match Gilchrist got one which seemed to be moving away and then pitched and came back in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jw9ksRAEGc

although the swing is very little

 

[Daemon]

It isn't possible to swing the ball both ways in the same delivery imo. What may give that impression is basically the the angle created by the bowler, for example; A right arm bowler coming around the wicket would angle it into the left hander, but if he positioned the seam towards slip, the ball would swing away from the left hander AFTER coming in with the angle.

As for the Gilchrist video, that's movement off the seam I believe, which has been explained a couple of times in this thread already.

Coincidentally, theres an advertisement for a coupon for a banana split on the bottom of the page here

 

[Uppercut]

Of course it's possible, it happens in England all the time after the ball passes the stumps.

 

[Daemon]

Maybe but who gives a **** about what it does after passing the stumps. (Besides the keepers)

 

[Manee]

Oh gosh, that is a good point. I used to get the ball to swing loads after it had passed the stumps.

 

[Daemon]

Should've bowled from an imaginary crease about 10 yards behind the actual one then

 

[smash84]

Should've bowled from an imaginary crease about 10 yards behind the actual one then