***Official*** Pakistan and England in UAE

[Furball]

I reckon this is a bit of an irrelevant argument. "If we played much, much better cricket when we played terribly then we would've won" is a pretty defeatist attitude. You didn't lose games by 10 runs or have rain-effected draws; you get belted because you batted like dicks in pretty much every innings.

Given it was such a specific and repeated failure it does make the weakness obvious, isolated and easy to focus on, which is an optimistic way to look at the potential for immediate improvement, but looking at the actual performance on this tour, it was awful, regardless of how close you think you were to 2-1.

Yeah, no argument. I suppose it's testament to how well the bowlers performed that despite England's batting being chronically awful all tour, a 2-1 win wouldn't have required an enormous level of improvement from the batsmen.

 

[gvenkat]

No, but you expect England to bowl out batting line ups in SC regularly for such low scores that you only have to chase 140 everytime?

I can't wait till they reach Sri Lanka.

 

[Furball]

No, but you expect England to bowl out batting line ups in SC regularly for such low scores that you only have to chase 140 everytime?

That's a completely different argument.

 

[gvenkat]

Yeah, no argument. I suppose it's testament to how well the bowlers performed that despite England's batting being chronically awful all tour, a 2-1 win wouldn't have required an enormous level of improvement from the batsmen.

I still think the SL and Indian batting is far better than Pakistan at home and it would be hard for the English bowlers to replicate the amount of success they got in the UAE. CW's overwhelming opinion is that India and SL are the biggest FTB . Not?

 

[screamingfields]

And a good series win. Great!

Pakistan are currently in good form. And now that a whitewash has been completed hopefully they'll be able to do the same, which was not very much expected...

 

[Cricketismylife]

While their bowling is world class, I didnt consider any of the English batsman to be world class at any point in their career, except for Trott possibly and Pietersen at the start of his career, when he performed well in 2 Ashes series home and away.

The whole Cook and Bell hype last year never felt right to me. They deserved the hype for their performances that year, but I never agreed with implications that they were tier 1 batsman. For most of their career they averaged in the early 40s, suddenly in 1 year they got it close to 50 and they were being considered as up there with the best in the world. It's not Cook or Bell's fault that the Australian, Sri Lankan and Indian attacks that they faced last year were terrible, and full credit to them for cashing in, but unfortunately for England Bell's 330 average against SL doesn't exactly prove that he can average 50 against decent bowlers. This isnt just an issue with England, this is an issue for world cricket. With a lot of promising new bowlers entering test cricket in the last 6 months, the game has completely changed.

During the England India series, the bowling stocks around the world were at the lowest point that I can remember. Nasser Hussain voiced his concern about this, and I remember seeing a non performing Harbajhan Singh in the top 10 in the bowling rankings, highlighting this point. I remember thinking that the only 2 really threatening attacks were England's and possibly SA's (who were over reliant on Steyn), which meant that the England batsman wouldnt really get tested anywhere other than v SA, and could cash in in most other test series.

Since then we have seen SA gain Philander, NZ gain Bracewell, Aus attack completely transformed and having a choice of 7 quicks and now Pakistan have truly confirmed that they are a force at home, with Rehman the surprise package for me. Even SL managed to take 20 wickets in SA! This has made test cricket unmissable, and hopefully this new trend of testing batsman will continue, so we can find out who the real class batsmen are.

 

[Prince EWS]

I still think the SL and Indian batting is far better than Pakistan at home and it would be hard for the English bowlers to replicate the amount of success they got in the UAE. CW's overwhelming opinion is that India and SL are the biggest FTB . Not?

Sri Lanka and India are better at batting but worse at bowling than Pakistan.

This means that England will find it easier to score runs but harder to take wickets.

Welcome to cricket.

 

[gvenkat]

Sri Lanka and India are better at batting but worse at bowling than Pakistan.

This means that England will find it easier to score runs but harder to take wickets.

Welcome to cricket.

Really now? Indian bowlers and SL bowlers are far better and you need to remember they have all kinds lefties, carrom ballers etc.. So England will find it even more tougher. Thanks for welcoming me to cricket.

 

[amanuensis]

While their bowling is world class, I didnt consider any of the English batsman to be world class at any point in their career, except for Trott possibly and Pietersen at the start of his career, when he performed well in 2 Ashes series home and away.

The whole Cook and Bell hype last year never felt right to me. They deserved the hype for their performances that year, but I never agreed with implications that they were tier 1 batsman. For most of their career they averaged in the early 40s, suddenly in 1 year they got it close to 50 and they were being considered as up there with the best in the world. It's not Cook or Bell's fault that the Australian, Sri Lankan and Indian attacks that they faced last year were terrible, and full credit to them for cashing in, but unfortunately for England Bell's 330 average against SL doesn't exactly prove that he can average 50 against decent bowlers. This isnt just an issue with England, this is an issue for world cricket. With a lot of promising new bowlers entering test cricket in the last 6 months, the game has completely changed.

During the England India series, the bowling stocks around the world were at the lowest point that I can remember. Nasser Hussain voiced his concern about this, and I remember seeing a non performing Harbajhan Singh in the top 10 in the bowling rankings, highlighting this point. I remember thinking that the only 2 really threatening attacks were England's and possibly SA's (who were over reliant on Steyn), which meant that the England batsman wouldnt really get tested anywhere other than v SA, and could cash in in most other test series.

Since then we have seen SA gain Philander, NZ gain Bracewell, Aus attack completely transformed and having a choice of 7 quicks and now Pakistan have truly confirmed that they are a force at home, with Rehman the surprise package for me. Even SL managed to take 20 wickets in SA! This has made test cricket unmissable, and hopefully this new trend of testing batsman will continue, so we can find out who the real class batsmen are.

So Cook & Bell have filled their boots at the right time, but Trott (possibly) hasn't?

 

[Prince EWS]

Really now? Indian bowlers and SL bowlers are far better and you need to remember they have all kinds lefties, carrom ballers etc.. So England will find it even more tougher. Thanks for welcoming me to cricket.

Sri Lanka have a better bowling attack than Pakistan? Really? I reckon they're closer to Bangladesh standard than they are to any other Test side tbh.

 

[Furball]

Sri Lanka have a better bowling attack than Pakistan? Really? I reckon they're closer to Bangladesh standard than they are to any other Test side tbh.

You're arguing against a guy that said this:

If England claim they are better at fast bowling than India, Look what happened to South Africa in Durban. Any day of the week Zak, Sreesanth and Ishant are better than the English bowlers.

 

[Fusion]

This thread obviously needs more pictures of Pakistan celebrating.

 

[Furball]

This thread obviously needs more pictures of Pakistan celebrating.

Stop trolling ****.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Sri Lankan batting isn't better than Pakistan's. And with Indian greats having lost it, they aren't exactly that much better.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Really now? Indian bowlers and SL bowlers are far better and you need to remember they have all kinds lefties, carrom ballers etc.. So England will find it even more tougher. Thanks for welcoming me to cricket.

Sri Lanka are a mediocre Test side, Pakistan are an erratic one that has won a lot of Tests lately. India are a bit of a unknown at home because they've been absolutely awful lately (but mostly in away series) and they're in transition.

If you think England will find it tougher in India or Pakistan you're following a different sport. Also after coming off this series I'd expect them to at the very least be better in their next sub-continent series, if not a lot better when we've not got sad-sack Bopara or Morgan in the Test side.

 

[Fusion]

Stop trolling ****.

I was trying to move the discussion away from England vs. SL/India.

 

[gvenkat]

You're arguing against a guy that said this:

Ajantha Mendis, Herath and Senanayake would spin England big time.

 

[CWB304]

Its like that series we had in NZ when both teams sucked against good seam bowling but we were just a million levels below the level that NZ sucked at..


I just can't believe that people are writing off a 3-0 whitewash as " oh it could have been 2-1 easily".. yeah, I can add that if India had a fit Zak and could bat properly, we would have at least drawn or even won the Lords test and so on.. England never looked like chasing down that 140, from the time they started their innings. If that is not cause for concern, I don't know what is.


Good thing is, the impression you get about Andy Flower and his staff, they will be a LOT more seriious and stern in their assessment of this performance than some of the fans, who, it just looks like, are having a hard time believing their team could be thrashed the way they were.

The double standards of some of the England fans on this forum is astonishing. And I say this as an England supporter. When Indian fans, BCCI officials, players like Ashwin, Gambhir, Kohli and Ishant, ex-players like Shastri - basically anyone even remotely connected to Indian cricket - make the sort of complacent comments that we've all heard since the recent England and Australia tours, to the effect that:

"It sucks, but we'll beat them at home and then everything will be alright",

they are widely mocked. Images of Saddam's propaganda minister are posted, threads are started and continue for pages and pages long after the comments have officially been denied, the names of crooks like Lalit Modi and the IPL are bandied about and used to muddy the waters and confuse what is a Test selection issue with something else altogether.

Yet even as they mock those Indians (sound like Tony Greig there), England's fans have been just as much in denial. There have been batting collapses in every match of this tour from the warm-up games till the third Test. Pietersen and Bell have not made a single contribution of note, even against part time bowlers. Yet rather than face up to the fact that drastic changes needed to be made to the middle order if England were to have any chance of succeeding, all we get is "we could easily have won 2-1" and other inanities.

No, mug, England could NOT have won 2-1, or in fact achieved any score other than 3-0 which fairly reflected the respective performances of the two sides. Why? Because England had incompetents batting in the crucial positions of 4, 5, and 6. Morgan is clearly not up to it, but he's the new boy so let's leave him out of it for now. The reality is that Pietersen and Bell are nowhere near as accomplished as they are made out to be on here, and this tour is the final proof, if any more were necessary. Yet despite the fact that it was pretty obvious as early as the end of the first Test that these clowns could not cope, management declined to change things around, and so England sleepwalked to a dismal and humiliating defeat that could have been avoided - given the quality of the bowling by Broad, Panesar, Anderson and Swann - if they had been brave enough to draft in batting reinforcements.

When you continue to rely on batsmen in the key positions of 4 and 5 who have proved quite conclusively that they are completely and utterly incapable of handling skilled spin bowling in anything other than their home conditions in an away tour when confronted with precisely that kind of bowling, then you have only yourself to blame for the whitewash.

HB is right, England never looked like chasing down 140. Despite this so-called England fans on here are still reacting as if merely suggesting that Pietersen's and Bell's places ought to be reviewed is an indicator of mental illness. That juxtaposition says a lot about England fans. I myself have been scathing about the Indian fans in the past, but I am now starting to reassess. The "If Zak had been fully fit" crowd are at least clinging on to hope - if only a faint and diminishing one. Misguided as they are, they are worthy of a certain respect if only because of that. The "how dare you suggest Bell/KP should be dropped, moron?" crowd on the other hand, are much worse. They are not living on hope, but stomping on it. The hope that England might some day fall out of love with posturing mediocrity and unjustified hype, and fall in love with sustained excellence.

 

[ganeshran]

Indian batting is the best out of the three sides. However Pakistan's bowling is the best and hence the whitewash.

Other teams though might have been able to beat England on dustbowls, wouldnt be able to inflict whitewashes given the big gaps in the bowling department. The biggest asset of pakistani bowlers is to be able to create sustained pressure from both ends. Even the part timer Hafeez bowls a tight line and limits scoring . With India and SL, they are sure to give a boundary ball every other over and let the batsmen settle in to form a partnership.

 

[Z-Man]

According to reports, Shoaib Malik is being preferred over Asad Shafiq. Malik is not playing in the match of Punjab while Sohail Tanvir is also not playing and is given the green signal.
Meanwhile, Farhat is likely to play in place of Taufeeq.


At the same time, youngsters like Hammad Azam, Afaq Raheem, Nasir Jamshed and Ahmed Shahzad are pilings runs in the domestic tournaments.
Fawad Alam is out of the equation.