Can Australia rebuild in time for the next Ashes series

[smash84]

Get him off the coke first!!

 

[Prince EWS]

The difference with players such as the guys you listed and the aussie youngsters is that england managed to get loads more first class games / test experience pumped into them which fast tracked their development. Bresnan and Finn had a lot more games pumped into them two years ago than Hazlewood, Starc and Pattinson have now.

Hazelwood and Starc have both had some pretty serious injury problems though, not to mention the fact that they're both from NSW and hence find it hard to get into the first eleven on merit.

 

[Jacknife]

The difference with players such as the guys you listed and the aussie youngsters is that england managed to get loads more first class games / test experience pumped into them which fast tracked their development. Bresnan and Finn had a lot more games pumped into them two years ago than Hazlewood, Starc and Pattinson have now.

It is a notable difference, I was looking at the stats of one of England's up and coming players, James Taylor who's 21 and he's already played 58 first class games.

 

[Furball]

The English and Australian systems have quite contrasting strengths and weaknesses - the fact that there's only 6 Australian sides means the standard of First Class cricket should be higher, but a player is only going to play 10/11 games a season. In England.the quality is a bit more diluted but players in the English system will be twice as experienced as their Australian counterparts.

Whilst the Australian system allows players plenty of down time to practice and hone their techniques and there's probably too much cricket played in England, there's probably no substitute for in the middle experience.

 

[Jarquis]

Wait, did SoC praise Anderson?

 

[Top_Cat]

tbh, that English players play more FC cricket from an earlier age (generally) is neither here nor there for me. Has always been the case. There are positives and negatives to both, as outlined by GF above.

As for the thread, nah. Agree with the sentiment Australia needs to look at the wider picture too.

 

[stephen]

The English and Australian systems have quite contrasting strengths and weaknesses - the fact that there's only 6 Australian sides means the standard of First Class cricket should be higher, but a player is only going to play 10/11 games a season. In England.the quality is a bit more diluted but players in the English system will be twice as experienced as their Australian counterparts.

Whilst the Australian system allows players plenty of down time to practice and hone their techniques and there's probably too much cricket played in England, there's probably no substitute for in the middle experience.

The real weakness of the Australian system is not so much the lack of games, but that selection mistakes tend to be magnified. If someone is kept out of first class cricket for a few games to "develop" someone else who does not work out, that can wipe out half a season.

Given our national selection policies it's easy to see that potential world-class players can be held down for too long or skipped entirely for the sake of developing prospects.

One thing that I find interesting about the Australian system is just how many top class players retired at the same time. Bichel, Kasper, Bevan, Maher, Love, Hodge, MacGill and a few other players who would have gotten a lot more international cricket if they played for other countries all happened to retire within a very short period of time. Not only that, but they all synchronised their retirements with the mass retirements from the Australian team. With all the youngsters in first class cricket at the moment we could quite possibly face the same thing happening again in 10-15 years.

I miss our glory days.

 

[Furball]

The real weakness of the Australian system is not so much the lack of games, but that selection mistakes tend to be magnified. If someone is kept out of first class cricket for a few games to "develop" someone else who does not work out, that can wipe out half a season.

Given our national selection policies it's easy to see that potential world-class players can be held down for too long or skipped entirely for the sake of developing prospects.

One thing that I find interesting about the Australian system is just how many top class players retired at the same time. Bichel, Kasper, Bevan, Maher, Love, Hodge, MacGill and a few other players who would have gotten a lot more international cricket if they played for other countries all happened to retire within a very short period of time. Not only that, but they all synchronised their retirements with the mass retirements from the Australian team. With all the youngsters in first class cricket at the moment we could quite possibly face the same thing happening again in 10-15 years.

I miss our glory days.

Quite a few of those retirements were ICL related weren't they?

 

[smash84]

The English and Australian systems have quite contrasting strengths and weaknesses - the fact that there's only 6 Australian sides means the standard of First Class cricket should be higher, but a player is only going to play 10/11 games a season. In England.the quality is a bit more diluted but players in the English system will be twice as experienced as their Australian counterparts.

Whilst the Australian system allows players plenty of down time to practice and hone their techniques and there's probably too much cricket played in England, there's probably no substitute for in the middle experience.

I always though that the Australian domestic system was better because they had extremely competitive seasons.

 

[Spikey]

We used to. But with only 6 teams you need every team to be strong - and SA has been pathetic for years and years now. Meanwhile QLD don't have a batting line-up at all. So for bowlers you're already down to 4 teams who are tough opponents - and 3 if you play on one of those teams. And with 6 teams what happened is a lot of the teams did the same thing - they ditched all the older players and started playing young kids in the post McGrath-Warne "OMG WHERE ARE THE REPLACEMENTS GONNA COME FROM?!?!?!?!?" scare. That hurt. Martin Love quit @ 35 and @ 37 would probably still be QLD's best batsman.

Elsewhere over the past 3-4 years we've seen a dramatic shift from players playing state cricket because they've dominated grade/junior cricket and also impressed in 2nd XI cricket to players playing state cricket because they played for the Aus U19's and so must be good. Of course Greg Chappell's modifications to the 2nd XI didn't help there but it's no surprise the Aus test team is **** when the domestic comp is a mess.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Wait, did SoC praise Anderson?

I believe in praising him when he's done something good...not just because he's "Jimmeh" and I've gone through a box of Kleenex just looking at him.

 

[smash84]

We used to. But with only 6 teams you need every team to be strong - and SA has been pathetic for years and years now. Meanwhile QLD don't have a batting line-up at all. So for bowlers you're already down to 4 teams who are tough opponents - and 3 if you play on one of those teams. And with 6 teams what happened is a lot of the teams did the same thing - they ditched all the older players and started playing young kids in the post McGrath-Warne "OMG WHERE ARE THE REPLACEMENTS GONNA COME FROM?!?!?!?!?" scare. That hurt. Martin Love quit @ 35 and @ 37 would probably still be QLD's best batsman.

Elsewhere over the past 3-4 years we've seen a dramatic shift from players playing state cricket because they've dominated grade/junior cricket and also impressed in 2nd XI cricket to players playing state cricket because they played for the Aus U19's and so must be good. Of course Greg Chappell's modifications to the 2nd XI didn't help there but it's no surprise the Aus test team is **** when the domestic comp is a mess.

A nice detailed analysis.

I remember Imran Khan coming up a lot of times on TV and praising the Aussie domestic cricket hence the perception in Pakistan is that the Aussie structure brings out the best players.

Your analysis has shed a lot of light on the current situation

 

[Howe_zat]

Spikey's posting lately has been far too reasonable and cricket related for comfort.

 

[Spikey]

Hahahaha. The likes of PEWS & Top_Cat could give much much better insight with ease. But another thing I think worth mentioning is that the shift in County cricket from two overseas players to one has hurt us I reckon. And what makes it sting is that the shift doesn't even seem to have done much, most teams seemed to have just picked more kolpaks of lesser quality! And over here the states are allowed one overseas player each, and while say NSW doesn't need one, QLD and SA most certainly could, but the only state that has one off the top of my head is Victoria with darren pattinson. And even then I'm not sure if he would actually count as one.

 

[Ikki]

Yes, and we'll **** them.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Yes, and we'll **** them.

That's more like it.

 

[Jarquis]

I believe in praising him when he's done something good...not just because he's "Jimmeh" and I've gone through a box of Kleenex just looking at him.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Yeah, he hadn't done anything good in the two years before the winter just gone.

Just admit the fact that you've praised him since he's 'done something good against Australia' as that's the only thing you ever seem to care about.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Yeah, he hadn't done anything good in the two years before the winter just gone.

Just admit the fact that you've praised him since he's 'done something good against Australia' as that's the only thing you ever seem to care about.

To be honest I didn't even praise him that highly against Australia if I remember correctly. Although I probably should have. I think I was more concerned with what a mess we'd become at the time.

I do realise, however, you don't suddenly become good without building up to it for some time with decent series. I just don't watch every series Anderson plays...which is probably quite natural for a non-English supporter. You are right though...I only care about what happens against Australia, which is why I'm watching this England vs India series at the moment.You'd have to excuse us for wanting some solid evidence too after 2006 and his previous efforts when playing in conditions that offer little assistance.

Now that I've explained how and why I changed my opinion I will admit one thing...it's highly enjoyable on occasions bagging 'Jimmeh' and 'Swanneh' just for the fact that your bottom lip hits the ground every time it happens.

Will eagerly await the post that points out how wrong we all were when Swanneh takes wickets on a 5th day turner.

 

[GIMH]

My time machine to November 2010 really does work!!

In other news...

Two years out it's hard to answer this question; not many people that weren't complete tools were backing us to take the 09 series just one year out (I.e. I was). In fact, just a few months beforehand it looked pretty grim, with us in disarray following the KP/Moores fallout, defeat in the Windies and Australia winning in Saffa with Johnson gunning it.

Things can turn around pretty quickly. Just quietly, I'd expect Australia to be back up ranked 2 or 3 come 2013. We'll be top, of course

 

[Redbacks]

A nice detailed analysis.

I remember Imran Khan coming up a lot of times on TV and praising the Aussie domestic cricket hence the perception in Pakistan is that the Aussie structure brings out the best players.

Your analysis has shed a lot of light on the current situation

Unfortunately we all believed this was true up until the last 2 years. The success of our Test side, and their ability to replace 1 player at a time around a nucleus of Warne/Mcgrath/Ponting perhaps blinded us to the reality of our domestic predicament.

Not many spinners are really proving their worth in state cricket, therefore we are left picking players who don't deserve to be there, and it's filtered through to the test side now.