India's opening pair

[Richard]

It was the reply above that about replacing someone having to leave a place they've proven themselves in.

So what, "in some people's minds", is happening, then?
Which batsmen are being forced to leave their positions to open?

 

[Richard]

no its not tainting at all....kirsten recently moved away from a place that he made his own so that smith could open and he didnt do too badly at 3 either. the point is that even if tendulkar failed, he could always go back to 4, if yuvraj failed it might just be the end of his career. i dont see how you can say that it would be better to put an inexperienced youngster up against the new ball instead of an experienced batsman(pretty much past his prime) batting at the top. it doesnt work that way at all.

Forcing openers to bat in the middle isn't quite as hard to do as forcing middle-order players to open.
Still, not often does either work.
If India want successful openers, their only real chance is to pick specialists.

 

[marc71178]

Yet when they do, people have a go at them even if they do a solid, but spectacular job.

 

[Richard]

Averaging 28 in Test-cricket is not solid.
It is very poor.

 

[marc71178]

Seeing off the new ball, allowing the talented middle order to face bowlers who are tired and using an old ball.

That is job done.

Also, his average is 28, but it is a very consistent 28, seeing as he has very few low scores.

Consistent suggests to me someone who can be relied upon, and thus he is a solid player.

 

[tooextracool]

Forcing openers to bat in the middle isn't quite as hard to do as forcing middle-order players to open.
Still, not often does either work.
If India want successful openers, their only real chance is to pick specialists.

it seems quite customary for you to bring up useless irrelevant facts.....obviously specialist openers would be the best option but thats not even an option! if you would take some time to read my posts i have clearly stated that it would be better to make an experienced,settled middle order player open the batting rather than an inexperienced middle order player whos place in the side isnt even certain yet. where you bring this 3rd option from i'll never know.....

 

[Richard]

I haven't "brought" that option from anywhere - it just sort of exists. That's what options do - it's then someone's responsibility (in this case the Indian selectors') to decide between those options.
And of course another specialist opener (ideally Sriram) is another option, a far better one IMO than either Yuvraj Singh, Chopra or someone already in possession of a middle-order place.

 

[Richard]

Seeing off the new ball, allowing the talented middle order to face bowlers who are tired and using an old ball.

That is job done.

Also, his average is 28, but it is a very consistent 28, seeing as he has very few low scores.

Consistent suggests to me someone who can be relied upon, and thus he is a solid player.

The talented middle-order didn't need the the new-ball seeing off, because those bowling with it weren't adept at using it in the way that makes it more dangerous than the old one. So therefore they had an equally good chance whenever they were batting.
And as I've shown, Chopra has got-out before the new-ball is seen-off plenty of times.

 

[marc71178]

Plenty of times being a whole 5 times out of 15.

Of course neglecting to acknowledge that on 10 of the 15 he's seen it off and then some.

 

[Richard]

One third seems like enough to me.
If someone's out for single-figures 1\3 of their career the chances are they're not going to end-up with a particularly impressive average.
So if he's seen it off "and some", where are all these 60s and 70s, then?

 

[delkap]

I would like to see Yuvraj opening for now with Sehwag (if it works ) else Chopra with Sewag. Once the BIG THREE (Sachin, Dravid and Ganguly) retire, Chopra can tk the opening slot (if he is still good) with someone else then.. Sehwag, and Yuvraj r future middle-order of India IMO.

 

[tooextracool]

I haven't "brought" that option from anywhere - it just sort of exists. That's what options do - it's then someone's responsibility (in this case the Indian selectors') to decide between those options.
And of course another specialist opener (ideally Sriram) is another option, a far better one IMO than either Yuvraj Singh, Chopra or someone already in possession of a middle-order place.

no it doesnt exist at all because india havent even selected a single specialist opener in the side. if you had read my post correctly we wouldnt even have been having this argument because i clearly said that "if india want to play yuvraj then they should consider opening the batting with ganguly or tendulkar"

 

[Richard]

It does exist - as far as I'm aware India haven't selected their side yet. Though I presume they've selected a provisional or training-camp squad, maybe that's what you're on about.
What I said was "if India want succesful openers, their best chance is to pick specialists".
The "if Yurvaj plays Ganguly or Tendulkar should open" is a completely different argument and I've already said my piece on that one too.
Even if India don't pick specialist openers for the Australia series (and I've never said it's not unlikely they will) their best chance, long-term, is to pick some.
That's what I was saying. So unless that option disappears because every batsman in India refuses to open the batting I can't see how it doesn't exist.

 

[tooextracool]

The "if Yurvaj plays Ganguly or Tendulkar should open" is a completely different argument and I've already said my piece on that one too.
Even if India don't pick specialist openers for the Australia series (and I've never said it's not unlikely they will) their best chance, long-term, is to pick some.

no the fact is that yuvraj will play instead of chopra so sriram and the rest dont come into the equation at all. so who would you have opening in that side....tendulkar,ganguly or yuvraj?

 

[Richard]

I don't see why I should have to pick a team from a squad that I would not have picked.
If someone is to pick a team, they have to pick the squad.
And personally I would pick two out of three of Das, Ramesh and Sriram. Certainly any training-camp squad I'd pick would include all three.
If I had to choose anyone out of Yuvraj, Tendulkar and Ganguly, I'd say to whoever picked the squad "you make the choice".
My prediction is that Yuvraj will open.

 

[tooextracool]

I don't see why I should have to pick a team from a squad that I would not have picked.
If someone is to pick a team, they have to pick the squad..

because you quoted from my post which clearly stated "if india picked yuvraj....."

And personally I would pick two out of three of Das, Ramesh and Sriram. Certainly any training-camp squad I'd pick would include all three..

yes because its worth it having proven test match failures in the side instead of someone who isnt.

My prediction is that Yuvraj will open.

im sure you perspired alot before making that decision.....

 

[Richard]

No, it wasn't that difficult to come to that prediction, when did I say it was?
Your post which I quoted from when I said:

Forcing openers to bat in the middle isn't quite as hard to do as forcing middle-order players to open.
Still, not often does either work.
If India want successful openers, their only real chance is to pick specialists.

was as follows:

no its not tainting at all....kirsten recently moved away from a place that he made his own so that smith could open and he didnt do too badly at 3 either. the point is that even if tendulkar failed, he could always go back to 4, if yuvraj failed it might just be the end of his career. i dont see how you can say that it would be better to put an inexperienced youngster up against the new ball instead of an experienced batsman(pretty much past his prime) batting at the top. it doesnt work that way at all.

What I was saying is that to pick someone who is not an opener as an opener seldom works.
I said it as an afterthought, not as a response to the current situation.

 

[tooextracool]

err no you responded to this one first

you pick batsmen according to their batting position see key......IMO if they want yuvraj in the side then one of the experienced middle order players must move up the order and IMO it should be either ganguly or tendulkar.

by saying......

You cannot compromise a strength, especially if it is SRT, by batting them in the wrong position.
If you want to bring someone in, someone proven should not have to leave the position they have made their own..

 

[Richard]

Ye-e-e-e-e-s-s-s. So?
It doesn't change the fact that specialist openers is always an option, long-term, even if it's not a short-term likelihood.
Don't try to cloud my discussion of the short-term likelihood by saying I'm not allowed to talk about the long-term best idea.

 

[tooextracool]

no you responded to my post which clearly states that if yuvraj plays tendulkar should open, so the 3rd option doesnt exist at all.....