Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 63

Thread: Batsmen or Bowlers?

  1. #1
    State Vice-Captain
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    mediterranea
    Posts
    1,452

    Batsmen or Bowlers?

    The recently concluded Pak-Windies test match leads me to ask whether:

    1) the whole "bowlers win matches while batsmen save them" chestnut is true?
    2) to what extent, if so?
    3) and how one would go about building a strong or dominating team for the future - start with a good group of bowlers or batsmen, assuming one had to make a choice?

    Of course, even without taking that saw too literally, one can get the gist of it. What are your thoughts on this? Needless to mention, India (and Lanka now, one would imagine) exemplify one end of the spectrum while Pakistan the other. It seems that the Indian results of the past few years would suggest that the batting 'model' should be the preferred one but that seems a bit simplistic (not that this whole thread or thought experiment isn't!).

    Look forward to your indulgence on this subject!
    Last edited by hang on; 16-05-2011 at 12:49 AM.
    i know i am god. since when i pray i find i am talking to myself.

    (massive apologies to barnes)

  2. #2
    International Regular
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,374
    India batting >>> Pakistan batting
    Pakistan bowling >= India bowling

    Both win you matches, but batsman can also save them (bowlers too if they are highly economical and don't take wickets, but that's unlikely).

    Thing is that there are 6 batsman compared to 4 bowlers, so a single bowler has more of an effect on the match result than a single batsman.

  3. #3
    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
    Duck Hunt Champion! Plops Champion!
    Tournaments Won: 2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    ksfls;fsl:lsFJg/s
    Posts
    27,571
    A team with Darren Sammy as one of its top bowlers just won a Test match.

    Bowling loses this argument.
    Direbirds FTW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Wellington will win the whole thing next year. Mark my words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    I'll offer up my avatar to Athlai forever if Wellington wins the Champions League.
    President of T.I.T.S
    Tamim Is Talented Society

  4. #4
    State Vice-Captain
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    mediterranea
    Posts
    1,452
    that is part of the mind**** aspect of that, athlai!

    it must take real effort to propel the ball at such a pudding pace when u have the perfect physique for a fast bowler.


  5. #5
    State Vice-Captain
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    mediterranea
    Posts
    1,452
    what's better for a batsman: to be part of good batting unit or team with a good bowling (but weak batting) unit? never can make up my mind on this one. i would guess the first but...

    i haven't played the game at a first class level and so do not really know whereof i speak. perhaps some here who has played at a high enough level can toss his tuppence this way..

  6. #6
    International Debutant salman85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,168
    1) the whole "bowlers win matches while batsmen save them" chestnut is true?
    Yes it does.

    2) to what extent, if so?
    Large extent.You have to bowl out the opposition twice to win a test match.You can win a Test match even if you bat only once.

    3) and how one would go about building a strong or dominating team for the future - start with a good group of bowlers or batsmen, assuming one had to make a choice?
    Bowlers.All great teams in history had strong bowling units.Having an equally good batting line is great,but you can win matches even if you have great bowling attacks and lesser batting lines.Shift it the other way around (great batting,lesser bowling) and the victory ratio comes down.Look at India - Their batting line has remained consistently good for ages,but their rise as an International Side is down to their potency as a bowling unit.
    Last edited by salman85; 16-05-2011 at 01:27 AM.

  7. #7
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A Blood Rainbow
    Posts
    32,598
    Start with a good group of batsmen - last I heard Pakistan haven't won too many Tests in the last few years despite having a gun attack. India have been doing pretty well with a less than brilliant attack, too.
    + time's fickle card game ~ with you and i +


    get ready for a broken ****in' arm

  8. #8
    State Vice-Captain
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    mediterranea
    Posts
    1,452
    nice way of looking at it, salman.

    i want to play the devil's advocate and so say:

    the victory ratio, if calculated using draws too, might be another way of looking at it though. for example ponting is the 'winningest' captain in history but richards never lost a series. simplistic way of putting it, i know!

    and india's rise coincides, arguably, with their batsmen's ability to play in different conditions more consistently.

  9. #9
    International Debutant salman85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,168
    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Start with a good group of batsmen - last I heard Pakistan haven't won too many Tests in the last few years despite having a gun attack. India have been doing pretty well with a less than brilliant attack, too.
    Pakistan's inability to win too many test matches in the last few years is down to our fragile batting lineups.The great bowling attacks have not been complemented by our batting lineups.

    India's rise as a test side,if attributed to one man,would be down to Zaheer Khan.There's always been the Sachins,Sehwags and Dravids,but Zaheer Khan has been the key.Also,India have the services of arguably the best captain in the world right now,which makes them rise above their limitations.

    A better rounded team,a great captain at the helm.They have a great batting line,and a good bowling attack.Pakistan has a great bowling line and an average batting attack.India's better shaped as a team,thus they have done better off late.
    Last edited by salman85; 16-05-2011 at 01:39 AM.

  10. #10
    International Debutant salman85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,168
    Quote Originally Posted by hang on View Post
    nice way of looking at it, salman.

    i want to play the devil's advocate and so say:

    the victory ratio, if calculated using draws too, might be another way of looking at it though. for example ponting is the 'winningest' captain in history but richards never lost a series. simplistic way of putting it, i know!

    and india's rise coincides, arguably, with their batsmen's ability to play in different conditions more consistently.
    India's batsmen always adapted well to different conditions.They struggled with bowling.And moreso,with quality fast bowling.They had Kumble and Harbhajan,but they didn't have a fast bowler who could compliment them consistently - Now Zaheer has taken over that role very well.

    Yes you can use the victory ratio by the number of draws too,but the different era argument applies here too.Australia were head and shoulders above every team during their prime,whereas WI faced comparativly more cometition.Not as simple,as it sounds,but just saying.

    There's a lot more that goes into the bowling-batting argument,and i've put it in a very simplistic way,but by and large,a side with a great bowling attack and good batting line would be more dangerous than an attack with a great batting line and a good bowling attack.

  11. #11
    International Captain weldone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Kolkata->Mumbai->London
    Posts
    6,138
    Quote Originally Posted by salman85 View Post
    India's batsmen always adapted well to different conditions.
    Not at all, salman. By 'always' if you mean 'the last 10-15 years' then you might have a point (though that's arguable too). Otherwise, this hasn't been the case at all before that.

    Among the retired Indian batsmen, only a handful played pace well consistently in bouncy conditions - Gavaskar, Merchant, Vishwanath, Hajare and Mohinder.
    Last edited by weldone; 16-05-2011 at 02:18 AM.
    "I want to raise my hand and say one thing. Those who complain about my love for the game or commitment to the game are clueless. These are the only 2 areas where I give myself 100 out of 100."
    - Sachin Tendulkar, as told in an interview published in Bengali newspaper Anandabazar Patrika after his 100th International century (translated by weldone)

  12. #12
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A Blood Rainbow
    Posts
    32,598
    Quote Originally Posted by salman85 View Post
    Pakistan's inability to win too many test matches in the last few years is down to our fragile batting lineups.The great bowling attacks have not been complemented by our batting lineups.

    India's rise as a test side,if attributed to one man,would be down to Zaheer Khan.There's always been the Sachins,Sehwags and Dravids,but Zaheer Khan has been the key.Also,India have the services of arguably the best captain in the world right now,which makes them rise above their limitations.

    A better rounded team,a great captain at the helm.They have a great batting line,and a good bowling attack.Pakistan has a great bowling line and an average batting attack.India's better shaped as a team,thus they have done better off late.
    Not true at all, until Sehwag and Gambhir came along India struggled to find an opening pair worthy of the name. Their success is built primarily on their batting and the "big four" - now five, obviously.

  13. #13
    International Debutant salman85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,168
    Quote Originally Posted by weldone View Post
    Not at all, salman. By 'always' if you mean 'the last 10-15 years' then you might have a point (though that's arguable too). Otherwise, this hasn't been the case at all before that.

    Among the retired Indian batsmen, only a handful played pace well consistently in bouncy conditions - Gavaskar, Merchant, Vishwanath, Hajare and Mohinder.
    I'm talking of the last 10-15 odd years when i started watching cricket obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Not true at all, until Sehwag and Gambhir came along India struggled to find an opening pair worthy of the name. Their success is built primarily on their batting and the "big four" - now five, obviously.
    Whereas India's opening pairs were not as great as Australia's,they were hardly shambolic.Their middle order has always been super strong and It has rated amongst the world's best for a while now.It is the improvement in bowling that has made their team better off late.The improvement in bowling,aided by a brilliant man incharge as captain has made India a better side.There is a very negligible difference in their batting quality.

    Let's agree to disagree.
    Last edited by salman85; 16-05-2011 at 03:22 AM.

  14. #14
    Request Your Custom Title Now! benchmark00's Avatar
    Tournaments Won: 1
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Is this CricketWeb's greatest poster in the short history of the forum?
    Posts
    37,156
    There is no definitive answer to this question.

    Like in football how on some days a team's midfield will win the game for their team, other days the forwards or defence will win it.

    Can't have a great team without both. Sometimes bowling wins the day, sometimes batsmen.
    Parmi | #1 draft pick | Jake King is **** | Big Bash League tipping champion of the universe
    Come and Paint Turtle
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Kohli. Do something in test cricket for once please.

    Thanks.

  15. #15
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    21,765
    India is a team with an ATG batting and average batting. Pakistan on the other hand neither have an ATG bowling attack atm and an ATP (All time pathetic) batting line-up so the comparison is not really fair IMO.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. India's bowlers for the West Indies and England tours
    By George.Hinton in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 57
    Last Post: 17-01-2011, 11:13 AM
  2. should bowlers be allowed to wear sunglasses
    By jouerducricket in forum Ashes 2010-2011
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 09-11-2010, 09:07 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •