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Thread: Batsmen or Bowlers?

  1. #16
    International Captain weldone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salman85 View Post
    I'm talking of the last 10-15 odd years when i started watching cricket obviously.
    Then also I won't agree, it is close though.

    If we talk about the last 10-15 years only, Sehwag has matured greatly as a batsman post-2007, Tendulkar has arguably hit the form of his life post-2007 and was pretty mediocre in the 2003-06 period in general. Laxman has hit the form of his life lately as well. Ganguly was not any Donald Bradman on bouncy pitches either. The only frontline batsman who was unarguably better pre-2007 than now is Rahul Dravid. And we haven't had as good a batsman among our wicketkeepers in the last 15 (or 40, for that matter) years as Dhoni. Overall, the current Indian batting lineup is a step ahead of any Indian batting lineup pre-2007...and 2 steps ahead on bouncy pitches.
    "I want to raise my hand and say one thing. Those who complain about my love for the game or commitment to the game are clueless. These are the only 2 areas where I give myself 100 out of 100."
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  2. #17
    State Vice-Captain akilana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Start with a good group of batsmen - last I heard Pakistan haven't won too many Tests in the last few years despite having a gun attack. India have been doing pretty well with a less than brilliant attack, too.
    How many matches have Asif and Amir played together for Pakistan? Asif made sporadic appearances for Pakistan. Akthar hardly played. Kaneria wasn't that good. Amir and Asif played together in only a few series but more than their batting, it was their fielding that was losing matches for them.

    Indian attack may not be great but they have two world class bowlers in their attack. Zaheer is right there behind Steyn and Harbajan is one of the two or three best spinners around. Which other team can boast of having two class bowlers--one spinner and one fast bowler-- in their attack other than England?

  3. #18
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    I'd back a team with great bowling and average batting to perform better than a team with great batsman and average bowling more often than not. Not much in it, obviously.

    Now I know people will use examples of the current Indian and Pakistani sides to rebut that, but I don't think it's a fair example. Here's why :

    The current Pakistani bowling attack is not great (talking tests here). It's very good/above average, yes, but not great. It'd be a different story if Mohammad Aamer and Mohammad Asif were around, though. Simply put, the gulf between the batting line-ups of the two sides is much more than the gulf between the difference in their bowling attacks (heck, some would argue there's little to choose between Zaheer, Sreesanth, Sharma, Harbhajan and Gul, Wahab, Ajmal, Rehman).

    For the comparison to be a fair one, the gulf in batting quality should be more or less equal to the gulf in bowling quality. Consider these two teams :

    1) Salman85
    2) Smalishah
    3) Fusion
    4) Faisal
    5) Agent Nationaux
    6) Xuhaib
    7) Imran Khan
    8) Wasim Akram
    9) Waqar Younis
    10)Shoaib Akhtar
    11)Saqlain Mustaq

    1) Virender Sehwag
    2) Sunil Gavaskar
    3) Rahul Dravid
    4) Sachin Tendulkar
    5) Gundappa Vishwanath
    6) VVS Laxman
    7) MS Dhoni
    8) vcs
    9) Jono
    10)Silentstriker
    11)Sanz

    Which team would you expect to do better and why?

  4. #19
    International Captain weldone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze 18 View Post
    1) Salman85
    2) Smalishah
    3) Fusion
    4) Faisal
    5) Agent Nationaux
    6) Xuhaib
    7) Imran Khan
    8) Wasim Akram
    9) Waqar Younis
    10)Shoaib Akhtar
    11)Saqlain Mustaq
    lol...any sensible batsman facing the bowlers of this team will try to leave every delivery that's not hitting the stumps because they can expect 'bye 4' for most of those


  5. #20
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Willing to bet Fusion gives a better interview than Dhoni.

    Edit: More seriously, Pakistan would win, because you only need 5 bowlers but everyone has to bat.
    Last edited by Howe_zat; 16-05-2011 at 05:39 AM.
    And we still haven't walked in the glow of each other's majestic presence.

  6. #21
    vcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze 18 View Post
    I'd back a team with great bowling and average batting to perform better than a team with great batsman and average bowling more often than not. Not much in it, obviously.

    Now I know people will use examples of the current Indian and Pakistani sides to rebut that, but I don't think it's a fair example. Here's why :

    The current Pakistani bowling attack is not great (talking tests here). It's very good/above average, yes, but not great. It'd be a different story if Mohammad Aamer and Mohammad Asif were around, though. Simply put, the gulf between the batting line-ups of the two sides is much more than the gulf between the difference in their bowling attacks (heck, some would argue there's little to choose between Zaheer, Sreesanth, Sharma, Harbhajan and Gul, Wahab, Ajmal, Rehman).

    For the comparison to be a fair one, the gulf in batting quality should be more or less equal to the gulf in bowling quality. Consider these two teams :

    1) Salman85
    2) Smalishah
    3) Fusion
    4) Faisal
    5) Agent Nationaux
    6) Xuhaib
    7) Imran Khan
    8) Wasim Akram
    9) Waqar Younis
    10)Shoaib Akhtar
    11)Saqlain Mustaq

    1) Virender Sehwag
    2) Sunil Gavaskar
    3) Rahul Dravid
    4) Sachin Tendulkar
    5) Gundappa Vishwanath
    6) VVS Laxman
    7) MS Dhoni
    8) vcs
    9) Jono
    10)Silentstriker
    11)Sanz

    Which team would you expect to do better and why?
    Pretty sure I would tip it in favour of the good guys. No way the Pakistan posters on here can play my dibbly-dobblers + off-spin (when I get tired after bowling two overs). And we would have far more trouble bowling out the tail than the top order.

  7. #22
    vcs
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    Seriously speaking, I would think a country has a much better chance of building a good team based on its bowling strength compared to its batting strength. Partly it's because if you find two quality strike bowlers who will do the business more often than not, you only need the others to do a decent, reliable job (see Australia with McWarne). On the other hand, if you want a strong team based on its batting, you cannot afford any passengers out of the 6 batsmen + keeper. That's because even the strongest lineups will collapse occasionally and you need one or two guys who put their hands up and bail you out.

    Also, you need a wide variety of skills in your batting lineup to account for all types of conditions. Strong openers who can see off the shine (if you have an aggressive game-breaker like Sehwag, that's a bonus), a quality middle-order that can capitalize or consolidate as the situation demands, and a guy like Steve Waugh/Laxman in the lower-middle order who can firefight and bat with the tail. Harder to find so much quality and expect them to all peak at around the same time.

  8. #23
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze 18 View Post
    I'd back a team with great bowling and average batting to perform better than a team with great batsman and average bowling more often than not. Not much in it, obviously.

    Now I know people will use examples of the current Indian and Pakistani sides to rebut that, but I don't think it's a fair example. Here's why :

    The current Pakistani bowling attack is not great (talking tests here). It's very good/above average, yes, but not great. It'd be a different story if Mohammad Aamer and Mohammad Asif were around, though. Simply put, the gulf between the batting line-ups of the two sides is much more than the gulf between the difference in their bowling attacks (heck, some would argue there's little to choose between Zaheer, Sreesanth, Sharma, Harbhajan and Gul, Wahab, Ajmal, Rehman).

    For the comparison to be a fair one, the gulf in batting quality should be more or less equal to the gulf in bowling quality. Consider these two teams :

    1) Salman85
    2) Smalishah
    3) Fusion
    4) Faisal
    5) Agent Nationaux
    6) Xuhaib
    7) Imran Khan
    8) Wasim Akram
    9) Waqar Younis
    10)Shoaib Akhtar
    11)Saqlain Mustaq

    1) Virender Sehwag
    2) Sunil Gavaskar
    3) Rahul Dravid
    4) Sachin Tendulkar
    5) Gundappa Vishwanath
    6) VVS Laxman
    7) MS Dhoni
    8) vcs
    9) Jono
    10)Silentstriker
    11)Sanz

    Which team would you expect to do better and why?
    lol......gun post

    Pakistan will lose because of Salman's complacency. Now if you put Turbi in the Indian line-up we will have a close match

    Quote Originally Posted by weldone View Post
    lol...any sensible batsman facing the bowlers of this team will try to leave every delivery that's not hitting the stumps because they can expect 'bye 4' for most of those


    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Seriously speaking, I would think a country has a much better chance of building a good team based on its bowling strength compared to its batting strength. Partly it's because if you find two quality strike bowlers who will do the business more often than not, you only need the others to do a decent, reliable job (see Australia with McWarne). On the other hand, if you want a strong team based on its batting, you cannot afford any passengers out of the 6 batsmen + keeper. That's because even the strongest lineups will collapse occasionally and you need one or two guys who put their hands up and bail you out.

    .
    In essence aren't you saying that you need one or two bowlers to perform for the ATG bowling team to win and you need one or two batsmen to perform in the ATG batting team. Doesn't that cancel out? I don't get your point.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  9. #24
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Pretty sure I would tip it in favour of the good guys. No way the Pakistan posters on here can play my dibbly-dobblers + off-spin (when I get tired after bowling two overs).
    you'll go for 6 sixes an over from the Pakistan top order and that too in a test match


    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    And we would have far more trouble bowling out the tail than the top order.

  10. #25
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze 18 View Post
    I'd back a team with great bowling and average batting to perform better than a team with great batsman and average bowling more often than not. Not much in it, obviously.

    Now I know people will use examples of the current Indian and Pakistani sides to rebut that, but I don't think it's a fair example. Here's why :

    The current Pakistani bowling attack is not great (talking tests here). It's very good/above average, yes, but not great. It'd be a different story if Mohammad Aamer and Mohammad Asif were around, though. Simply put, the gulf between the batting line-ups of the two sides is much more than the gulf between the difference in their bowling attacks (heck, some would argue there's little to choose between Zaheer, Sreesanth, Sharma, Harbhajan and Gul, Wahab, Ajmal, Rehman).

    For the comparison to be a fair one, the gulf in batting quality should be more or less equal to the gulf in bowling quality. Consider these two teams :

    1) Salman85
    2) Smalishah
    3) Fusion
    4) Faisal
    5) Agent Nationaux
    6) Xuhaib
    7) Imran Khan
    8) Wasim Akram
    9) Waqar Younis
    10)Shoaib Akhtar
    11)Saqlain Mustaq

    1) Virender Sehwag
    2) Sunil Gavaskar
    3) Rahul Dravid
    4) Sachin Tendulkar
    5) Gundappa Vishwanath
    6) VVS Laxman
    7) MS Dhoni
    8) vcs
    9) Jono
    10)Silentstriker
    11)Sanz

    Which team would you expect to do better and why?
    Agree with Howe_zat that Pakistan will win because everybody has to bat and not everybody has to bowl

  11. #26
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Seriously speaking, I would think a country has a much better chance of building a good team based on its bowling strength compared to its batting strength. Partly it's because if you find two quality strike bowlers who will do the business more often than not, you only need the others to do a decent, reliable job (see Australia with McWarne). On the other hand, if you want a strong team based on its batting, you cannot afford any passengers out of the 6 batsmen + keeper. That's because even the strongest lineups will collapse occasionally and you need one or two guys who put their hands up and bail you out.

    Also, you need a wide variety of skills in your batting lineup to account for all types of conditions. Strong openers who can see off the shine (if you have an aggressive game-breaker like Sehwag, that's a bonus), a quality middle-order that can capitalize or consolidate as the situation demands, and a guy like Steve Waugh/Laxman in the lower-middle order who can firefight and bat with the tail. Harder to find so much quality and expect them to all peak at around the same time.
    Excellent points.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    if you find two quality strike bowlers who will do the business more often than not, you only need the others to do a decent, reliable job (see Australia with McWarne). On the other hand, if you want a strong team based on its batting, you cannot afford any passengers out of the 6 batsmen + keeper.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Also, you need a wide variety of skills in your batting lineup to account for all types of conditions.
    That would be true for the bowling too, I think.


    Bowlers. Because the distinction between a very good bowler and a competent one (eg. Steyn vs. Broad) is far greater than the distinction between a very good batsman and a competent one (eg. Tendulkar vs Strauss). If I had the first pick (in alternating picks) from among Steyn, Tendulkar, Broad, Strauss, and eighteen other competent FC players to form a team which will play the other eleven in a test match, I would choose Steyn without hesitation.

    To express it succinctly, in the well established (and apparently much admired and imitated) traditions of CricketWeb baby-talk jabber:

    bowler >> batsman. For India in England, Zaheer wafg >> Tendulkar wag. And so forth.

  13. #28
    vcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    lol......gun post

    Pakistan will lose because of Salman's complacency. Now if you put Turbi in the Indian line-up we will have a close match







    In essence aren't you saying that you need one or two bowlers to perform for the ATG bowling team to win and you need one or two batsmen to perform in the ATG batting team. Doesn't that cancel out? I don't get your point.
    I think building a reliable batting order with the experience and quality to perform consistently everywhere is difficult. Look at India, they have had a strong batting order on paper since Ganguly and Dravid entered the picture, but until recent times they had a tendency to collapse. Hell, even Australia's ATG lineup collapsed a few times when they were really tested (India 2001, Ashes 2005).

    Essentially my argument comes down to the fact that it only takes one ball for a batsman to get dismissed. So in the long form of the game, bowlers always hold an advantage of sorts.

  14. #29
    vcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Excellent points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borges View Post
    +1



    That would be true for the bowling too, I think.


    Bowlers. Because the distinction between a very good bowler and a competent one (eg. Steyn vs. Broad) is far greater than the distinction between a very good batsman and a competent one (eg. Tendulkar vs Strauss). If I had the first pick (in alternating picks) from among Steyn, Tendulkar, Broad, Strauss, and eighteen other competent FC players to form a team which will play the other eleven in a test match, I would choose Steyn without hesitation.

    To express it succinctly, in the well established (and apparently much admired and imitated) traditions of CricketWeb baby-talk jabber:

    bowler >> batsman. For India in England, Zaheer wafg >> Tendulkar wag. And so forth.

  15. #30
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    My team would clearly win since I'd be chucking beamers and getting no balled until a batsman died.
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