The 2nd Greatest Cricketer From A Country

[Austerlitz]

Aus - bradman,warne,mcgrath
Wi - sobers,viv/marshall,lara/ambrose
india -tendulkar,gavaskar,kumble/dravid
Pak- imran,wasim,miandad
Sl - Murali,snagakkara,de silva.
Nz- hadlee,martin crowe,bond.
SA- kallis,g.pollock,donald
eng -Barnes, Botham,hutton,

 

[sehwag fan]

Using Reliance Rating to prove a point.

Cuter.

Sorry but Reliance is sponsor. It is ICC all rounder rating.

And there is no definite way to compare all - rounders like batting or bowling.

 

[ankitj]

All rounder's ratings can suffer if your bowling and batting peaks don't coincide. Better to look at peak batting and bowling ratings. I suspect Imran will suffer there too because he was not batting as often as some who batted higher up the order did. You can't ignore his batting average in last 10 years or so, though. Around 50, and in those times, is tremendous.

 

[sehwag fan]

All rounder's ratings can suffer if your bowling and batting peaks don't coincide. Better to look at peak batting and bowling ratings. I suspect Imran will suffer there too because he was not batting as often as some who batted higher up the order did. You can't ignore his batting average in last 10 years or so, though. Around 50, and in those times, is tremendous.

Which means he was inferior all-rounder to Sobers, Kallis and Miller who have higher rating points than him for 10 years not 1 or 2 year.

And how can you be termed great all-rounder if you are not batting and bowling well simultaneously.

Imran khan had become a support bowler to Wasim in last 6 years of his career. He concentrated purely on batting.

If today Sachin stops batting and concentrate on bowling and takes 70-80 wickets in 4 to 5 years , he won't be termed all-rounder.

 

[smash84]

a lot of all time sides do not need a bowling all rounder as distinct from the 'regular' all rounder.....just all rounder does it. in which case, it is almost invariably sobers. while many might believe in the need for one, many also don't. (the cricinfo bunch would be a case in point, i would suppose).

if a bowling allrounder were to be required, many could easily argue for the inclusion of miller over imran. nothing in the stats to separate them. or in the charisma stakes!

also, not convinced that richards would be a certainty. headley, lara, pollock, hammond all have quite some arguments in their favour.

Surely the SR and wickets per match is quite different for Imran and Miller right??

Keith Miller | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

Sure enough they are different but not that different really. Why then does Miller have such a low wicket per match ratio????

Aww.Aren't you a cute little thing.

 

[sehwag fan]

Surely the SR and wickets per match is quite different for Imran and Miller right??

Keith Miller | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

Sure enough they are different but not that different really. Why then does Miller have such a low wicket per match ratio????

We are talking about their ability as all-rounder not bowler. Imran was a better bowler than Miller.

Imran never performed consistently with bat as well as bowl at the same time as compared to sobers, kallis and Miller.

 

[smash84]

Which means he was inferior all-rounder to Sobers, Kallis and Miller who have higher rating points than him for 10 years not 1 or 2 year.

And how can you be termed great all-rounder if you are not batting and bowling well simultaneously.

Imran khan had become a support bowler to Wasim in last 6 years of his career. He concentrated purely on batting.

If today Sachin stops batting and concentrate on bowling and takes 70-80 wickets in 4 to 5 years , he won't be termed all-rounder.

Maybe I can use the same selective application of statistics as you to make a point.

Since you were using peak ratings here is Imran's peak bowling rating # 3 in the all time bowlers list

Reliance ICC Player Rankings

And yes if for the next 5 years Tendulkar can bat like he is batting and get 100+ wickets at an average of less than 25 then I would say that he is an all rounder and VERY good all rounder at that.

 

[Spark]

He said "if he stops" batting tbf. It's an interesting question, can you really call someone an allrounder if they're good at both disciplines over the course of their career, but never at the same time? Ie. always good at one of batting or bowling at any point in their career, but not both?

 

[smash84]

We are talking about their ability as all-rounder not bowler. Imran was a better bowler than Miller.

Imran never performed consistently with bat as well as bowl at the same time as compared to sobers, kallis and Miller.

Imran was never a match winning batsman but he saved a number of test matches. Doesn't mean he did not perform them together. Also Imran did not get as much opportunity to bat because he came in at number 7 and 8. Was still a more than decent batsman. Saved a number of matches against WI and Aus that I can recall.

When did Kallis perform so well simultaneously with the ball and bat????

 

[sehwag fan]

Maybe I can use the same selective application of statistics as you to make a point.

Since you were using peak ratings here is Imran's peak bowling rating # 3 in the all time bowlers list

Reliance ICC Player Rankings

And yes if for the next 5 years Tendulkar can bat like he is batting and get 100+ wickets at an average of less than 25 then I would say that he is an all rounder and VERY good all rounder at that.

Miller had better all-rounder rating than Imran for 10 years. Not for few months. And btw did Imran retain that peak rating for 10 years. Go and check again.

 

[smash84]

He said "if he stops" batting tbf. It's an interesting question, can you really call someone an allrounder if they're good at both disciplines over the course of their career, but never at the same time? Ie. always good at one of batting or bowling at any point in their career, but not both?

Yes it is an interesting question but it is quite stupid and silly of people to claim that Imran playing second fiddle to Wasim in the last six years of his career. Imran was the main Pakistan bowler until 1989 when Waqar emerged. Until 1989 he was opening the bowling and bowling many overs.

Imran was the main strike bowler for Pakistan since his return from injury in 1985. Wasim came in the side in 1984

 

[sehwag fan]

Yes it is an interesting question but it is quite stupid and silly of people to claim that Imran playing second fiddle to Wasim in the last six years of his career. Imran was the main Pakistan bowler until 1989 when Waqar emerged. Until 1989 he was opening the bowling and bowling many overs.

Imran was the main strike bowler for Pakistan since his return from injury in 1985. Wasim came in the side in 1984

He bowled extremely less in 1986 series when Pak toured India as well as when India toured pak in 1989.

His peak was in 1983 series in which he took 40 wickets.

 

[Howe_zat]

I'm as much a fan of graphs as anyone but rankings points are hardly the be all and end all. I've always thought that they're too slow to adjust, for example.

Back on topic, I'm surprised no-one mentioned WG Grace for England yet, as neither the best or second best English cricketer.

 

[smash84]

Miller had better all-rounder rating than Imran for 10 years. Not for few months. And btw did Imran that peak rating for 10 years. Go and check again.

Read my posts again to see why Imran was not higher in the all rounder ratings because he came really low down in the order.

All that you are saying that while Imran may not have been as rounded an all rounder than say Sobers or Miller doesn't say which is the better all rounder.

 

[sehwag fan]

Read my posts again to see why Imran was not higher in the all rounder ratings because he came really low down in the order.

All that you are saying that while Imran may not have been as rounded an all rounder than say Sobers or Miller doesn't say which is the better all rounder.

So basically there is a question mark over his claim to second best all rounder.

And btw this topic came when Salman said Imran was a certainity in ATXI, which he is not .

Only Bradman and Sobers are certainity. Nobody else is .

 

[smash84]

He bowled extremely less in 1986 series when Pak toured India as well as when India toured pak in 1989.

His peak was in 1983 series in which he took 40 wickets.

lol..........dude first you say that Imran was not bowling much from the time that Wasim came and now you start picking individual series. Get some coherency in your arguments.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Here is Imran's bowling workload from 1985 onwards till 1990. He is bowling quite a lot.

In England 1987 and WI 1988 he was the man of the series BECAUSE he was the best bowler and all rounder

 

[smash84]

So basically there is a question mark over his claim to second best all rounder.

And btw this topic came when Salman said Imran was a certainity in ATXI, which he is not .

Only Bradman and Sobers are certainity. Nobody else is .

If people would like a bowling all rounder they would prefer Imran. For a batting all rounder they would go for Sobers. Depends on preference or team balance.

I would prefer a stronger bowling unit since I find good bowlers a rarer proposition than good batsman and feel that a strong bowling unit would mean greater results for my team. Although the current indian line up does not match up to my preference (an exception I should say) but then you don't get such extraordinarily strong line ups anywhere.

 

[smash84]

So basically there is a question mark over his claim to second best all rounder.

And btw this topic came when Salman said Imran was a certainity in ATXI, which he is not .

Only Bradman and Sobers are certainity. Nobody else is .

While Imran may not be a certainty in an all time eleven there was no need to make up false claims like Imran did not bowl a lot since Wasim came in. Such blanket statements without proof end up making you look like a fool (not far off the mark though )

 

[sehwag fan]

lol..........dude first you say that Imran was not bowling much from the time that Wasim came and now you start picking individual series. Get some coherency in your arguments.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Here is Imran's bowling workload from 1985 onwards till 1990. He is bowling quite a lot.

In England 1987 and WI 1988 he was the man of the series BECAUSE he was the best bowler and all rounder

From 1985-87 Hadlee was the best all-rounder. Go and check rankings.
So if imran is bowling quite a bit then why his all-rounder rating never came above 500 for more than 7 months in 12 years.

He was never consistent enough with bat as well as bowl at the same time as compared to sobers, kallis and Miller.And this is reflected in rating points over 12 years.

 

[smash84]

From 1985-87 Hadlee was the best all-rounder. Go and check rankings.
So if imran is bowling quite a bit then why his all-rounder rating never came above 500 for more than 7 months in 12 years.

He was never consistent enough with bat as well as bowl at the same time as compared to sobers, kallis and Miller.And this is reflected in rating points over 12 years.

Because he came in at number 7 and number 8 throughout most of his career. I don't think that is too difficult to understand