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Who are your 10 greatest cricketers of the 19th Century?

Magrat Garlick

Global Moderator
Good stuff :) Loved the naive one of Beauclerk :p

Was match-making what we'd call match-fixing, or was it just playing for money?
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
The XI I chose, on the basis their careers ended before 1864 (I stretched it just a bit for Parr) was

John Small
William Beldham
Nicholas Felix
Fuller Pilch
George Parr
Alfred Mynn
John Wisden
*William Clarke
William Lillywhite
David Harris
Edward Stevens
Very interesting team. Legends all, and if one was selecting a pre 1864 "cricket personalities eleven" this team would certainly take some beating.

From an objective point of view, however, perhaps it could be argued that Messrs Wisden and Wanostrocht are a little overrated due to their fame in other fields. Firstly, Wisden's contemporary William Hillyer, who hardly ever gets a mention in these lists, took an incredible 862 first class wickets in the six years between 1842 and 1847. The best six year spell of Wisden's career yielded 575 wickets, although obviously he could bat a bit. Secondly, Felix only averaged 20+ in three seperate seasons (min. 10 innings); the high scoring Lord Beauclerk managed this seven times. Having said that, perhaps it would be better for team morale to leave the "unmitigated scoundrel" out of it.

Also, it is impossible to compare eighteenth century underarm bowlers like Harris and Stevens with those of the mid nineteenth century. Given the significant reduction in scoring after the introduction of round-arm bowling in the 1820s/1830s, I suspect the likes of Hillyer and Wisden were actually much more difficult to face. Obviously the legend of David Harris and Lumpy Stevens is extremely strong and if your goal was as initially suggested they should be in there.

Finally, the tail looks rather long with Mynn at six and Wisden at seven. With at least eight bowling options perhaps a bowler could be sacrificed for a little more batting depth? Who is keeping wicket? Surely a specialist like Tom Sueter, Ned Wenman or Tom Box deserve a go?
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Silver Billy will guard the castle - I know he wasn't a specialist keeper, the number of wickets he took is testament to that, but as he had 49 stumpings and 333 catches as well in his 189 match First Class career, I'm confident that he would make a decent stumper - as you say I went for the biggest names, rather than try and objectively pick the best eleven - it made the feature easier to write :)
 

stumpski

International Captain
Surprised not to see a mention of Ted Pooley at any point. He was still playing in 1877 - and, but for an 'incident' in New Zealand, would have featured in the first Tests - but had probably played his best cricket by then. Will get round to doing 'His Own Enemy' one day.

I stumbled on this doing a search for Hambledon. Anyone been there? I made a detour earlier this week on my way back from the Isle of Wight - the village is only a few miles from Portsmouth. Nothing at all in the village itself to indicate its historic significance, apart from a rather faded shop sign, but the Bat & Ball is well worth a visit. Chock full of cricket memorabilia and photos.
 

Midwinter

State Captain
From Australia

Charles Bannerman - just because
Alec Bannerman - the first Bill Lawry
Billy Murdoch - how could anyone leave him out ?, a great in any era.
J.Darling - specialist batsman
G.Giffen - "time to change the bowling George ? - "hmm alright, I'll try from the other end"
W.Midwinter - who else ?
J.Blackham - The first black jack
JJ Ferris - left arm variety
H.Trumble - better than Warne apparently
CTB Turner - the Terror !!!
Fred Spofforth - its rumoured Dennis Lillee modelled himself on the Demon

Sorry if its an eleven, just couldn't help it
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Pre-1900 Test XI
1. WG Grace
2. Arthur Shrewsbury
3. KS Ranjitsinhji
4. Tom Hayward
5. Billy Murdoch
6. Hon. FS Jackson
7. Jack Blackham
8. Fred Spofforth
9. Johnny Briggs
9. George Lohmann
11. Charlie Turner

Decided against Darling; Hill, Noble and Trumper hit peaks post-1900. JJ Ferris and Tom Richardson unlucky to miss out.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Does anyone have any reading material on the assassination attempt on FS Jackson while he was the Governor of Bengal in 1925?
 

Biryani Pillow

U19 Vice-Captain
I stumbled on this doing a search for Hambledon. Anyone been there? I made a detour earlier this week on my way back from the Isle of Wight - the village is only a few miles from Portsmouth. Nothing at all in the village itself to indicate its historic significance, apart from a rather faded shop sign, but the Bat & Ball is well worth a visit. Chock full of cricket memorabilia and photos.
I've umpired a match at Hambledon - very windy even on a still day - and drunk in The Bat & Ball Inn:)

Lovely ground.

My Top Ten of the 19th Century:

Dr W.G.Grace: Possibly the most amazing cricketer in history. Nobody, not even Bradman, was so far ahead of his peers. When Grace scored his 100th century nobody else had more than 27. His batting average for many years would often be close to double the next best player. He was also a fine bowler and outstanding fielder, and in his younger days (until c33-34) he was an outstanding all round athlete. Made cricket headline news - spoken about all over the country and in many places overseas.

Fuller Pilch: The greatest batsman off his day and the first of the century to be consistently the top man.

Alfred Mynn: The pre eminent fast bowler of his day and a dangerous batsman. Had he been born a little later he would have likely been the major opponent of Grace.

Fred Spofforth: That, in the early years of Test cricket, Australia could reasonably challenge the full strength of England was mainly because they had a strong hand of bowlers - and The Demon was key to that, Although he had a very fast ball in his locker I suspect, from much reading that his average pace was what we would call medium fast - but he varied so much and got so much 'work' on the ball (old term) he was truly outstanding.

George Lohmann: Another superbly skilled bowler with great variation and an incredible record. Could take wickets whatever the pitch.

Billy Murdoch: Probably Australia's first 'great' batsman, and a fine keeper to. Not quite the equal of.........

Jack Blackham: Known as "The Prince of Wicket Keepers". Pooley of Surrey and Pinder of Lancashire were likely not much, if at all, inferior but Blackham is the first great Test keeper.

K.S.Ranjitsinhji: Came to prominence, and did most of his best work, before 1900. Added elements to batting that hadn't been dreamt of before, and with style. The first 'person of colour' to make a mark on British society - to do this, and be accepted, so easily suggests amazing talent.

Tom Richardson: His incredible record over a 5 or 6 year span in the 1990s was truly amazing. He was often at his best on batsman's pitch where other bowlers were ineffective.

John Barton King: The first bowler to really understand how to swing the ball. Although he never had the chance to play Test cricket the evidence (leading an otherwise not that strong team against English Counties and touring international teams) suggests he would have been a major player.

If you extended the list to 'most important' people in 19th Century cricket you'd include William Ward - an outstanding batsman (first to get a 200 - and nobody else did for a long time) who used his wealth and position as a Governor of the Bank of England to be a great financial benefactor to the game.

Also William Clarke who started the All England XI and took quality cricket out around the country to the masses - planting great seeds and increasing the popularity of the game by a huge amount.

My Pre 1900 World Test XI

W.G.Grace
Arthur Shrewsbury
Andrew Stoddart
K.S.Ranjitsinjhi
Bill Murdoch
The Hon F.S.Jackson
George Giffen
George Lohmann
Fred Spofforth
Tom Richardson
Edmund Peate

Murdoch to keep the hens.
King invited for a trial.

Stoddart was a fantastic batsman, and great captain, for many years. By nature an opener but a hard hitter who'd be great at 3 if the openers had laid the platform, and solid if in early. Ranji would add some major dash in the middle followed by two who were great under pressure (Jackson especially) and Giffen who just liked to bat. Lohmann was considered an all rounder and Spofforth could bat as well.

A great fast bowler to lead the attack then two fine medium fast (although with superb variations) bowlers in support. A mediem paced offie who would happily bowl all day and a left arm spinner who had a short career but was considered the best of his type at least until Wilfred Rhodes appeared. Very good 'spare' bowler in Jackson with Grace and Stoddart available for a few overs if needed.
 
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SpofforthLohman

U19 12th Man
I would have George Giffen ahead of just about anyone especially Alfred Mynn who you put at third. Giffen was and still is one of the all-time greatest all-rounders and certainly the best in 19th test matches. I admit I am yet to put my list up. I can't argue with Grace's first class record, it is wayyyy better than his test record but he didn't play many tests. The experts were unanimous the Grace was that centuries greatest player and who am I to argue against that.
1. Grace .... 2. Lohmann (on average alone, he must have been a real monster bowler)... 3. George Giffen..... 4. Frederick Spofforth. ... <<<<<< that is my top four the other 6 places I need to think about a bit longer. The great fast bowler C.T.B. Turner is a certainty for top 10 but I am not sure where he place, Billy Murdoch will be there too because he was the first great Australian batsman and a big favorite of Grace's For most of the English players of that time you really have to go through first class statistics as many didn't play many test matches. I have to fill four spots and at least three have to be Englismen. For many of the greatest Australians who played in the 19th century most were in the 1890's and continued on into the early 1900's so thats why this is difficult.
My special mention player never played a test because he was retired by the 1870's but I just have to mention him, he was an allrounder and one of the best players in England at that time but that is besides the point because his real name was..... Julius Caesar (FACT)...... Old Julius has to have the coolest name of any cricketer ever.I assure you that it was a different Julius Caesar to the famous Roman.:)
 

SpofforthLohman

U19 12th Man
Tough choice

That is a hard one, I go slightly for CTB Turner ahead of Tom but probably wasn't a struck match between them, simply put they were very great pacemen. I probably should find space for both of them but I have to pick some batsmen.
 

SpofforthLohman

U19 12th Man
In reply to the team that Dan has above

That is a great team but leaving the awesome George Giffen is an obvious boo boo, even Grace would be with me on that one, he thought Giffen was the finest of all Australian players of the century and I have to agree with him, any player who can make a triple century and take at least 14 wickets in the same match simplay has to still be on of the greatest allrounders to ever live and maybe the best spin bowling allrounder ever,, Obviously Aubrey Faulkner, Armstrong and Noble have claims to that also, Giffen was the best Australian spinner of the century ... period.. Nice to see Briggs in there, there was a freakish spin bowler for sure ............
 

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