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Where does George Lohmann rank among the all time great fast bowlers?

Dissector

International Debutant
I admit I had never heard of Lillywhite but wow I never realized there was someone with a first class bowling average of 1.53. And the gap between him and the next lowest at 5.43 is quite massive too. But frankly I think it just indicates how different the game was back then. You can't really compare players that far back especially when you don't have video footage.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Once you normalize for the skewed bat-ball balance, Sydney Barnes beats him, and here is my little proof for that. Still quite sensational, but nowhere near as dominant among bowlers as Bradman was among batsmen. Besides, his sample size at the test level is relatively small. And yes, I find it difficult compare players from the 19th century with those from 20th century onwards when test cricket emerged as the ultimate and uniform standard of cricket worldwide.

As for the question asked in the thread, I might have him in best 20.
haha.......there is that famous thread again :)

btw your thread always reminds me how gun Alan Davidson was and yet not quite as celebrated as some of the other past greats
 
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a massive zebra

International Captain
Sorry to spoil the party, but I can categorically state that Lillywhite did NOT have a first class bowling average of 1.5 or a strike rate of 10.

Very early scorecards generally only credited bowlers with bowled dismissals, and did not record the number of balls bowled or runs conceded by the bowler. This issue gradually improved around the middle of the 19th century with the introduction of Lillywhite's Guides and Wisden's Almanack, but even as late as the 1870s some scorecards, while giving full credit to bowlers for their dismissals, didn't record the balls bowled or runs conceded. There are also a handful of first class matches where the runs conceded are recorded but bowlers aren't given credit for wickets taken with the aid of fielders (i.e catches, stumpings).

Full bowling analysis are only available for innings covering 235 of the 1576 wickets Lillywhite is known to have taken in his first class career. In their historical ignorance or complete disregard for statistical accuracy, Cricinfo have simply taken all the balls bowled and runs conceded by Lillywhite in the comparatively few instances where full information is available, and divided these by the total number of wickets taken in his entire career to arrive at hugely misleading averages and strike rates.

Where full bowling analysis are available, Lillywhite is known to have taken 235 wickets at an average of 10.36, a strike rate of 28.21 and an economy rate of 2.20. This issue affects nearly all pre 1870 bowlers to some extent. The best average of any bowler with (virtually) complete career figures is George Freeman, who took 284 wickets at an average of 9.84, strike rate of 35.47 and economy rate of 1.66. He also took four more wickets in match(es) where full bowling analysis were not kept.
 

Daemon

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I see, that makes more sense than someone taking a wicket every 10 balls. Still, where did you get that info from?
 

turnstyle

State 12th Man
Did anyone notice that most of the recent (post ww2) bowlers to average sub 15 in FC cricket were all South Africans during the apartheid era. I'm guessing the Currie Cup was pretty **** in the 70s?
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
No, the Currie Cup was a very high standard competition in the 1970s with some really top players such as Barry Richards, Graeme Pollock, Mike Proctor and Vincent Van Der Bijl.

Those bowlers were all black men banned from the Currie Cup and playing in the Howa Bowl, a low quality black mans equivalent of the Currie Cup.
 

Dissector

International Debutant
Sorry to spoil the party, but I can categorically state that Lillywhite did NOT have a first class bowling average of 1.5 or a strike rate of 10.

Very early scorecards generally only credited bowlers with bowled dismissals, and did not record the number of balls bowled or runs conceded by the bowler. This issue gradually improved around the middle of the 19th century with the introduction of Lillywhite's Guides and Wisden's Almanack, but even as late as the 1870s some scorecards, while giving full credit to bowlers for their dismissals, didn't record the balls bowled or runs conceded. There are also a handful of first class matches where the runs conceded are recorded but bowlers aren't given credit for wickets taken with the aid of fielders (i.e catches, stumpings).

Full bowling analysis are only available for innings covering 235 of the 1576 wickets Lillywhite is known to have taken in his first class career. In their historical ignorance or complete disregard for statistical accuracy, Cricinfo have simply taken all the balls bowled and runs conceded by Lillywhite in the comparatively few instances where full information is available, and divided these by the total number of wickets taken in his entire career to arrive at hugely misleading averages and strike rates.

Where full bowling analysis are available, Lillywhite is known to have taken 235 wickets at an average of 10.36, a strike rate of 28.21 and an economy rate of 2.20. This issue affects nearly all pre 1870 bowlers to some extent. The best average of any bowler with (virtually) complete career figures is George Freeman, who took 284 wickets at an average of 9.84, strike rate of 35.47 and economy rate of 1.66. He also took four more wickets in match(es) where full bowling analysis were not kept.
Good post and thanks for the information. Perhaps you should send an e-mail to Cricinfo asking them to put up the correct stats.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Weren't conditions ridiculously favoured towards bowlers when he played
Yeah, they were tilted more towards bowlers than they have been since, but not enough to explain an average of 10. I standardised his average along with every other bowler in history in another thread, and he still came out on top; it was just very close.

Obviously his average flatters him a bit but I still rate him the greatest Test bowler of all time.
 

archie mac

International Coach
Iredale who played against Lohmann towards the end of the latters career and watched SF during his peak thought Lohmann the better.

From reading it would seem Lohmann was at the very top of the tree but his average of ten is not a true reflection of his ability unlike a Bradman :)
 

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