Better Test Batsman::: A Border vs. S Waugh

[TheJediBrah]

Bro he literally batted 3 times in Sri Lanka his whole career

It's not a weakness to playing cricket in Sri Lanka

It's a coincidentally bad series and a very small sample. He also missed a bit of the series because of the famous collision with Jason Gillespie where Waugh had his nose broken and his face ****ed up

This is why you need to think about these things before using them as part of an analysis

 

[bagapath]

This is why you need to think about these things before using them as part of an analysis

Of course I think about these things, what makes you assume I don't?

4 times *in* Sri Lanka

may not mean much, sure but you should think twice before posting your argument too

 

[TheJediBrah]

Hey I'm not trying to be a dick but come on surely you can see that using his 4 innings (1 not out) in Sri Lanka as a mark against him in a comparison is completely illogical

 

[BazBall21]

The Sri Lanka stat shows the worst side of checklist analysis because it's such a miniscule sample size. Can't look much into them unless they're backed up in other areas of a player's resume or technique. Waugh has a good record in India.

 

[bagapath]

Hey I'm not trying to be a dick but come on surely you can see that using his 4 innings (1 not out) in Sri Lanka as a mark against him in a comparison is completely illogical

Very fair point, dude.
Just like I have negated Border's SA record on account of those performances coming towards the fag end of his career, Steve Waugh's SL record can be ignored, on account of small sample size, too.
Like I said before, we are looking at dead equals on almost all counts and splitting hair.

 

[breakitdown]

Should it really diminish from all his other feats though? It sounds like spotting one weakness in his record and discounting it against all the other positives. Steve Waugh didn't have a great record against Pakistan, but he was hardly a failure. Rawalpindi in 1998 must surely be one of Steve Waugh's finest innings.

98 against peak Waqar Wasim in 94 is his favorite.

 

[breakitdown]

AB has played medium pacers through out his career, except just the Windies attack and Imran. AB never had to deal with Donald Pollock, Wasim Waqar at their peaks, Muralitharan and the other great spinners in Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed, Anil Kumble and so many others. Waugh played a lot against Walsh and Ambrose, he did play against the 80s Windies attack and came out good as a youngster. For the critics, Waugh had done great against Pakistan when it mattered the most, doesn't matter if his average is a bit low against them. Pick any great batsman, there will be always be a team where the stats will not be as great. AB averaged 33 against SA and 39 against WI. Some people are just biased.

 

[breakitdown]

And like you said the other week, Waugh averaging below 40 in his first sixty Tests shouldn't be completely ignored. Border was a 50-bat throughout more or less.

Yeah against weaker bowling attacks, West Indies being the only exception. add Imran, Hadlee to it or Sarafraj..... others were English medium pacers AB was milking runs against. Ordinary Indian, SL, NZ attacks of the 80s.

 

[breakitdown]

Waugh has faced the most lethal bowling attacks right from Marshall in the 80s and the gun Windies of 80s to killer Pakistani attack of the early 90s, South African attack of the 90s and early 2000s, Indian spinners, Pak spinners, the guy single-handedly took Australia to number 1 by beating Windies in West Indies 1995 and never looked back.

 

[OverratedSanity]

the guy single-handedly took Australia to number 1

Lol

 

[The Sean]

AB has played medium pacers through out his career, except just the Windies attack and Imran. AB never had to deal with Donald Pollock, Wasim Waqar at their peaks, Muralitharan and the other great spinners in Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed, Anil Kumble and so many others. Waugh played a lot against Walsh and Ambrose, he did play against the 80s Windies attack and came out good as a youngster. For the critics, Waugh had done great against Pakistan when it mattered the most, doesn't matter if his average is a bit low against them. Pick any great batsman, there will be always be a team where the stats will not be as great. AB averaged 33 against SA and 39 against WI. Some people are just biased.

Waugh has faced the most lethal bowling attacks right from Marshall in the 80s and the gun Windies of 80s to killer Pakistani attack of the early 90s, South African attack of the 90s and early 2000s, Indian spinners, Pak spinners, the guy single-handedly took Australia to number 1 by beating Windies in West Indies 1995 and never looked back.

Stop it Mrs Waugh, you're not fooling anyone.

 

[Bolo.]

Combining the last couple of pages of comments:

I reckon Waugh faced better bowlers in general, but I'm not at sure this is true for better old ball bowlers, which matters more for him. The best old ball attacks he would have faced would have been SL away, and Pak. Plus early career WI, who just had enough firepower to be a threat no matter the age of the ball.

Attacking his lack of success against any of these in isolation seems like horrible nitpicking, but Border does seem potentially ahead when it comes down to what seems like they should have been his biggest challenges.

Which is not to say I actually rate Border above Waugh. Watched enough of Waugh shrugging off quality RSA bowling to realize this dichotomy of the best and other is overly simplistic. In think Waugh was the best bat in games I have seen. So I lean towards rating him ahead. But

 

[Burgey]

Yeah against weaker bowling attacks, West Indies being the only exception. add Imran, Hadlee to it or Sarafraj..... others were English medium pacers AB was milking runs against. Ordinary Indian, SL, NZ attacks of the 80s.

Do you really think England in the late 80s and 90s had better bowling attacks than they did from the late 70s to mid 80s? I don’t think there was much between the Indian attacks either played tbh. Both very average for the most part. Kapil and Kumble the obvious exceptions.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Do you really think England in the late 80s and 90s had better bowling attacks than they did from the late 70s to mid 80s? I don’t think there was much between the Indian attacks either played tbh. Both very average for the most part. Kapil and Kumble the obvious exceptions.

Srinath was good in the 90s.

 

[Burgey]

Better than prime Kapil? I think not, and I’m a big Javagal fan

 

[mr_mister]

Used to think Waugh, now kinda think Border

Waugh faced a ton of ATG bowlers yes but he was spared facing McWarne and he absolutely got to constantly top up his runs against England

Got to plunder them an insane amount of times

 

[TheJediBrah]

England wasn't a bad team during Waugh's career, the bowling especially was usually quite decent. If you look at Waugh's Ashes 100s most of them were important innings in tough games, with a few exceptions.

I don't think they were as good as 70s or 80s England but this retroactive classing 90s England as minnows is weird

 

[mr_mister]

I mean they didn't have that single bowler that could be relied upon to deliver and it was in the batsmen's best interest to try and see them off and attack someone softer. Every bowler was a soft target

Gough was their best and he averaged 28 and despite some success he also got pasted a lot

Not minnow status but easy pickings more often than not

 

[TheJediBrah]

I mean they didn't have that single bowler that could be relied upon to deliver and it was in the batsmen's best interest to try and see them off and attack someone softer. Every bowler was a soft target

Gough was their best and he averaged 28 and despite some success he also got pasted a lot

Not minnow status but easy pickings more often than not

Not really. If all you're looking at is their averages keep in mind they suffered from having to play against Aus so often. Batting in Ashes tests was quite often a real battle. Caddick cleaned us up a few times and there were plenty of tough times.

They were probably weaker than all non-Zimbabwe teams, including WI up until about 1999, but it's not like they were losing Ashes series 5-0. That didn't start until mid 00s

 

[mr_mister]

They weren't losing 5-0 but it was usually only 1 win per series max. 1997 the dubious exception being 6 games and a dead rubber second victory

I just think of guys like Mark Waugh and Michael Slater, who while obviously talented batsmen against the other teams, got to feel like batting behemoths against England

Just seemed like every Aussie batsmen from that era has their highest opposition average being against England