Kallis vs Ponting as test batsmen

[Jono]

Originally Posted by vcs

What absolute nonsense. So Murray was also taking away the attention from Federer in the Australian Open 2010? Give me a break. Shock horror, a human being getting overcome by emotion.

You mean the cool, calm and collected Federer that never lets his emotions get the better of him, which makes him better than everyone else (quoted from every tennis expert in the world)?



Nah.

[Prince EWS]

I'll be deleting tennis posts in here from now on; go use the tennis thread.

[Jono]

Ponting is a subject of this thread, so this post should be fine.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

Look at Smith not declaring right now. Fear of a quickfire Sehwag innings.

It changes games, within ten overs, the field is pushed back, the bowlers start bowling tripe, fielders are defensive and every other batsman in the lineup benefits. You just have to watch Sehwag's effect on the rest of the lineup again, over the past few years.

A long innings will eventually demoralize bowlers, but it'll be a while and they can attack for a long time. What we see with really dominating innings is that even at the other end, bowlers start bowling tripe as they're off their rhythm, the fields all messed up, and the game seems to be taken away....

As I said, if I had two batsmen of similar averages I would pick the faster S/R 10/10 times. If the difference in S/R is 20+, let alone 30-40+, I'd probably pick the faster S/R even if the averages are 5-7 points lower.

Allan Donald saying exactly this right now.

Saying that an extra hour or so at India yesterday (when they were demoralised and tired from the heat) would have made a huge difference to this match, but Smith was scared of Sehwag.

[vic_orthdox]

Didn't have to be an hour, even five or so overs, take the initiative/front foot.

[Jono]

Most definitely.

But it wasn't just the timing of the declaration, but the fact Morkel was blocking balls with a 320 run lead which was perplexing.

[benchmark00]

Devo the l00ch was deleted.

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by Prince EWS

I'll be deleting tennis posts in here from now on; go use the tennis thread.

Such a killjoy

[Jono]

Originally Posted by benchmark00

Devo the l00ch was deleted.

Needed a photo with the Looch with a cricket bat

[honestbharani]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

Yup. And that's why Gilly would open along with SRT in my all time XI.

Sehwah right now is having an effect purely on reputation - Imran Khan was talking about how Viv had the same effect on the fielding team...the fact that he could completely dominate you changed the gameplan for the opposition - even if he actually ended up having no effect. Chappelli was talking about it the other day about the importance of strike rates. Sometimes he makes me cringe, but on this he was spot on.

So while I respect Kallis and Dravids as greats who would make the all time sides of their countries, I would not have either in the absolute top echelon of batsmen (e.g top ten) which are candidates for an all time XI.

Dominance ends careers, it takes demoralizes bowlers, changes game plans, and completely puts the other team under pressure within five-ten overs. Ponting could and did do that. SRT and Lara did. Gilchrist and Sehwag certainly did. Kallis and Dravid - rarely so.

And I've changed my mind on this fairly recently - after seeing with my own eyes the effect that Sehwag has had on the other team. Even when out of form, even before the game, and certainly when he started to go off and opposition captain has a 'SOMEONE HELP ME' face about eight overs into a Test match in the first morning.

What the older guys have been saying about Viv has started making a lot more sense .

lol... And just the fact that to dominate the way these guys did at times requires much more skill than just hanging around. Put it this way, it is relatively easier to defend a good ball than to attack it.

[silentstriker]

Originally Posted by The Sean

Far too many people. Not many on this forum, thankfully, but I wasn't just referring to this forum with my statement.

Who? I really haven't heard many at all.

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

Who? I really haven't heard many at all.

Ha ha, seriously? Fair enough, I need to move more in your circles then.

[honestbharani]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

Totally agree. If they score a similar amount of runs at a similar average over a long period of time, they're of similar quality.

It's the ODIs. Here we talk exclusively about tests and most agree they're all extremely close, but if you gave a decent weighting to ODIs Tendulkar would come out on top.

Yep.. AWTA.. With ODIs taken into account, guess Sachin, Viv and to an extent Ponting sort of pull ahead a bit more than the others...

[vcs]

Kallis surely slightly ahead at this point for me. The way he tackled an on-fire Harbhajan in sorely testing circumstances to save a match and series is something that Ponting does not quite have in his resume.

However, a good series for Ponting later this year in SL could change that equation.

[Ikki]

It's quite amazing how Kallis has gone from underrated to overrated in the span of a series. Look, Kallis is a fantastic cricketer; an all-time great. His batting is in the league of Sachin, Ponting, Dravid and Lara, certainly. However, I would say he is inferior to them, still. With regards to Ponting; one has to remember that Kallis has scored a ****load against B/Z where Ponting has had very few matches against them.

Without minnows, the difference between them is 2 runs on average in favour of Kallis and 15 points on SR in favour of Ponting. I'd say that more or less puts them equal in terms of crude output. I say that because I read Marcuss arguing how Kallis simply scored more runs and was hence better. That's like saying Yousuf is better than Steve Waugh.

But that doesn't scratch the surface IMO because it says little about the quality of the runs scored. I'd always thought Kallis generally scored runs in easier situations/against easier attacks than Ponting but I decided to see if that is the case. Since they're both practically the same age, have played the same amount, debuted the same year and even peaked during the same decade against most the same attacks I decided to look at their records since 1995 - the year they debuted. I have ranked the best bowling attacks from top to bottom and shown who has done better against them.



The top 5 attacks during their time were Australia, S.Africa, Sri Lanka, England and Pakistan. Against them Kallis averages 44.87 @ 44; Ponting averages 52.22 @ 61. Furthermore, Ponting averages above 50 away and at home against all of them bar England (42 and 44). Kallis on the other hand averages in the 30s against both SL and Aus in S.Africa. He averages in the 20s against England in England and in the 30s against SL in SL. At home, he averages above 43 only against Pakistan.

Of course Ponting doesn't face Australia and Kallis doesn't face S.Africa. However, Ponting has a fantastic record against S.Africa and Kallis has a mediocre record against Australia. Where Kallis catches up overall is against the bottom 5 attacks. Not that Ponting does poorly; Kallis just made merry to a greater extent.

Against the bottom 5 attacks Kallis averages 76.74 @ 46; Ponting averages 55.35 @ 58. Against these teams Ponting averages 60+ in every country bar India where he averages in the 20s (note: he had 1 inning in Zimbabwe where he made 31). Kallis too has a fantastic record where he averages above 50 against everyone home and away (note: he had 3 innings in Bangladesh where he averaged 33).

All this is not to point out that Kallis hasn't played quality innings. But on the whole I'd argue much less than Ponting has against the best attacks, home and away.

When I was looking up their records I was very impressed by Kallis' 3rd/4th innings average. With a bit more scrutiny, however, I was a bit disappointed. Kallis has really played for the red ink there. He really piled on the runs in draws that were going nowhere or innings where S.Africa were obviously going to declare they were so ahead. I invite you to look at his 100s in draws and analyse them for yourself. It goes to show you that sometimes perceptions are correct (i.e. Kallis being seemingly selfish) and I get the impression of Kallis being a cricketer who certainly knew his numbers and played for them. I know innings where the likes of Ponting, Lara or Sachin once got to 100s and then let loose for the sake of their team whereas I can recall very few for Kallis.

On the whole, I like that Kallis wasn't battered in this poll; I think he deserves to be thought of alongside the best batsmen of his day. But he was not Ponting's equal, anymore than Barrington was Sobers' IMO- and I actually think the latter pair have more of a debate.