Nah Ikki usually makes good points that make you think once you get through his initial, "Go Australia!" posts. Will be back here after about 20 posts and continue this with him.
If a generation of Aussie cricketers pass without winning a world cup, we will come back and see how much importance WC performances would still hold.
Last edited by ankitj; 01-12-2010 at 11:52 PM.
RIP Phil Hughes. You were destined for cricketing glories!
Come back strong Sean Abbott. It's not your fault.
Furthermore, it was a collective failure; but as a finisher Dhoni could have rescued those innings. If every time Aus collapsed and Bevan failed too...it would also be a collective failure. Yet he stood tall and built unbelievable innings. It would only take Dhoni to bat longer than 0 for his team to have stood a chance in that tourney; but scores of 0, 0 and 29 are the reason he and his team were sent home early. It's not even that they lost; it's that he didn't help at all.
2nd SF: Australia v West Indies at Mohali, Mar 14, 1996 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against Windies; Aus collapse to 4-15; Bevan comes in and helps add about another 160 and helps Aus win the match. Reminds me of his last ball 4 victory against WIndies in another match - that was incredible too.
16th Match: Australia v Pakistan at Leeds, May 23, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against Pakistan; Aus fall to 4-101, chasing 276; Bevan helps Aus fightback to 214 without a loss; however not enough as Aus lost by 10 runs.
2nd SF: Australia v South Africa at Birmingham, Jun 17, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against S.Africa; Aus fall to 4-68. Bevan and Waugh carry the fightback to 158, however Waugh goes. Bevan is left with the tail and takes Aus to a respectable 213. With some magic from Warne and a last ball blunder by Donald; Aus make the final in a thrilling match.
37th Match: Australia v England at Port Elizabeth, Mar 2, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against England; Aus collapses to 4-48, chasing 204. Bevan comes in and steadies the ship to 111. The next 4 wickets go in a hurry for only 24 runs. Another crisis but Bevan with help from Bichel take 135 to 208, winning the match with 2 balls to spare. An unforgettable match (as all these matches are really).
5th Super: Australia v New Zealand at Port Elizabeth, Mar 11, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against England; Aus collapse to a pumped up NZ to an embarressing score of 7/84. Bevan and Bichel once again put on a big partnership taking the score to 208. The Aus bowlers make the NZ bowlers look human and bowl NZ out 112, giving Aus the win.
And just LOOK at those attacks: Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop; Wasim, Akhtar, Saqlain; Donald, Pollock, Kallis and Klusener...
This is why I may seem a bit aggressive but you're talking about a guy who did this kind of thing a lot. The above were examples from the WC. Do you think anyone cared that instead of slogging his way to those scores Bevan took his time and built innings to buy back the pride of his country?
When Dhoni has these kinds of innings in such a tournament; along with having the longevity and being able to compare statistically to Bevan...then that'll be a debate. And no, that has nothing to do nationalism.
Last edited by Ikki; 02-12-2010 at 02:08 AM.
OK, fair enough. I agree with all those instances and they were indeed pretty incredible efforts (I don't think you've mentioned the Australian Tri-series match where he won the match from 6/40 or something against WI with a last-ball four) so yeah, Dhoni has a long way to go to match those heroics. But I think people take issue with blanket statements like "that's why he has 2 WC medals and Dhoni has none" when Dhoni has only played one WC so far. Yeah, he has failed in that one but he might rectify that yet.
Aravinda de Silva's WC '96 Semi Finals and Finals , and that epic tie in 2003 WC with SAF, innings just sends those five innings from Bevan for a spin. If better batsmen are ones who do better in WC Aravinda > Bevan. And most importantly Bevan flopped [36*(49)] in the final where he was unable to accelerate. Classic case of evidence that bevan was not a complete player. Dhoni would have doen it close to 49(49) in that instance.
Once again Ikki in that WC performance shoker. I can use Klusener as an example too.
This has been told to you before; yet you keep beating the same strawman. One wonders if you keep forgetting it; are not understanding; or are ignoring it so you seem like you have a point.
Also, that finals loss had nothing to do with Bev batting slowly. If he'd scored at a run a ball we still would have lost. He was still the 3rd fastest scorer in Aus team in that innings. SL were too good on that day.
Ikki, few points:
One, not many are actually arguing that Dhoni is better than Bevan. There's a reason I myself did not include Dhoni in this poll.
Two, to say Dhoni and Bevan can't be named in the same sentence is outright disrespect to Dhoni because he does merit a comparison even if he finishes second best. He has occupied the top position in ODI ranking charts for the best part of last 3 years, having won ICC ODI player of the year award twice in a row.
Three, you cannot unilaterally decide which games are big (World Cups, Ashes etc). For an Indian cricketer, Indo-Pak matches are often as intense as world cup games. Dhoni has played some truly unbelievable knocks against them.
Four, try passionately arguing for a non-Australian cricketer and that will help you gain some credibility.
Five, to say Bevan has 2 world cups and Dhoni has none is nonsensical, any which way you look at it. Has to be said even if you take offence on that.
Last edited by ankitj; 02-12-2010 at 07:12 AM.
Bevan in WCs 44.75 @ 64. (1996 - 2003)
Aravinda in WCs 36.7 @ 87 (1987 - 2003), hence Aravinda's Sr will further swell when standardized. During same time period (96 - 03) (43.8 @ 94) Aravinda easily dwarfs Bevan in WCs.
These two are equal in WCs. Since de Silva has better WC SFs and finals than Bevan, he's a greater player according to your WC stats.
Once again Ikki, in a Wc shocker.
Last edited by Migara; 02-12-2010 at 06:10 AM.
TBF, I think that Ikki is saying that Aravinda's record doesn't compare over all ODIs, so while he's been fantastic in those World Cups, it doesn't stand that he is a better player than Bevan.
20* from 69 balls - team tactics..
One thing that I had forgotten about Bevan's famous 4 from the last ball match was that he didn't actually get MoTM, it went to Reiffel who took 4 wickets and 30 odd.
Next we look at Lance Klusener. Averages 41.1 and SR of 90. Comparable record with Bevan. And in WCs Klusener averages 124 @ 121. Hence Klusener > Bevan. Ikki's once again in hi WC matches shocker.
Then we have a look at Zaheer Abbas, 47.8 @ 85, which will become close to 90 if adjusted for beva's era. And in WCs Abbas averages 49.8 @ 74. Abbas > Bevan
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