• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Should Martin Guptill be playing test cricket?

Should Martin Guptill be playing in the NZ test team?


  • Total voters
    21

Flem274*

123/5
The selectors appear to believe Martin Guptill is one of the top eight batsmen in the country. Certainly he has a very fine List A record, averaging 42 for Auckland with 4 centuries and 4 fifties in 30 matches, and he's translated it to a respectable ODI record.

But in first class cricket for Auckland, he averages only 26 from 19 matches with just one century. Forgetting comparisons with other openers around the country for a moment, since Guptill made his debut he has had the worst first class record of any Auckland opener barring the very new wicketkeeper opener Brad Cachopa and his brother Carl Cachopa.

Auckland Openers since Guptill's First Class Debut

Martin Guptill: 821 runs @ 26.48
Tim McIntosh: 4660 runs @ 39.49
Matt Horne: 5161 runs @ 45.27
Richard Jones: 7064 runs @ 37.57
Jeet Raval: 876 runs @ 43.80
Carl Cachopa: 240 runs @ 20.00
Brad Cachopa: 77 runs @ 19.25

At first glance his test record is respectable, with a century and four fifties from 13 tests at an average of 33, but he averages 245.00 against Bangladesh and his next highest average is against India (27.22).

I think he is a very good List A and ODI player, is excellent off the front foot, and he's great to watch, but I don't think he should be playing test cricket.

The counter argument is the rest of our openers are dire, so we might as well persist with him because he might come through. It does have some merit, because the names Michael Papps, Matthew Bell, Craig Cumming etc don't exactly inspire confidence.

But imo, firstly if Tim McIntosh, who would probably not be our first choice of opener if we were to play our first test ever tomorrow with his suspect technique, can score a few runs at the top level then there is still some hope for the rest.

In any case, with McCullum's move up the order Guptill seems to be the fighting for the number three spot with BJ Watling. I don't believe either should be anywhere near it. I won't mention the number three because you'll all roll your eyes and call me biased (pick Sinclair!), but while it's not fantastic pickings around the traps number three wise either (unless we elevate Williamson now) every single number three batsman currently playing first class cricket has a much better record than Guptill. By all accounts there's some dodgy techniques in that group but Guptill is hardly the epitome of perfection on the backfoot, and his ability to construct an innings is almost non-existent.

Secondly, I think it's about time we stopped devaluing the New Zealand cap. We're not a fantastic side at the moment, but I firmly believe players should earn their keep. Judging by some of the selections these days it's more about fluke/luck than scoring runs. Easy runs to the test side is not helping these young guys either, because players like Daniel Flynn and BJ Watling had only just begun to belong at the first class level when they were elevated to the test side to face the best bowlers in the world. Martin Guptill hasn't even found his feet yet for Auckland and he's in the test team.

It isn't fair on these batsmen and when you see the selectors leaving guys like Williamson to work their way up at their own pace before getting a "softer" position down the order in the test side, you have to wonder whether the selectors are saying "Well, player x isn't the most hyped kid like Williamson/Taylor/Ryder was, but they look good at the crease when they score their thirties and forties so maybe if we give them a crack at the top they will succeed but if they don't it doesn't matter because they weren't talked up much anyway."

I think it would do Martin Guptill a world of good to go play for Auckland and learn his game some more. Our FC cricket isn't the best thing since sliced bread but time at the crease and some short pitched bowling from the Bennett's/Milne's/McClenaghan's/Gillespie's etc would do him no harm at all.
 

Julian87

State Captain
I'd probably pick How over him. But Guptill is obviously going to have a long international (and test IMO) career so I don't mind him cutting his teeth at that level and averaging 30 or just below for a few years in order to improve and come of age as a player. This is a better solution than not playing him for someone at the peak of their form and talent who would average just over 30 and never have the capacity to improve,. (most NZ batsmen outside of Taylor, Ryder and McCullum since Fleming and Astle tbh)
 

Blocky

Banned
Not at this stage, basically I believe that Guptill needs to go back and perform well for his province, prove that he's a class above in terms of ability to score big and score consistent and then come back into the mix. He has the one day stuff to keep his name near selection and maybe some talks with county cricket clubs for him to go and play over there would be helpful

Always maintained Skippy Sinclair, Mark Richardson, Craig McMillan and Nathan Astle should have sought contracts in county cricket to assist their consistency and get them more ready for test cricket.

I wouldn't select How either, he's had a decent crack at test cricket and while he's consistent and performs at first class level, I think Peter Fulton is a better candidate. Hasn't had quite so many chances as How, has performed more consistently at First Class level and had 6 out of 16 innings against RSA/Aus to date.

To be honest, the NZ Top 6 should read something like

1. McCullum, 2. McIntosh, 3. Taylor, 4. Ryder, 5. Williamson, 6. Vettori.

If NZ are serious about winning test matches, they need to add an extra bowler, or bowling all rounder into their side for the added strike power. The argument about Taylor not being able to bat 3 isn't one I accept..

Wicket keeper wise, McGlashan, Young and Krueger all have to make the next couple of years count but personally I still like the idea of BJ Watling converting himself into a keeper who bats and adding more depth at 7 (or potentially bat him 6 with Vettori 7)

If McIntosh doesn't cut it, then I'd be tempted to relook at guys like Papps, Fulton, Cumming and Redmond to see if they've developed further.
 

irottev

U19 Cricketer
Don't understand why Van Wyk isn't seriously in calculations.
Ineligable. At least he WAS. He might be allowed now.

I voted yes, though i'd rather have How in there so on second thought probably not. Keep him in the squad though. I think he has talent and potential if he irons out some technical faults.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
He might be allowed now.
Yep, is.

Cricket: Three more set to switch allegiance
By Andrew Alderson
4:00 AM Sunday Jul 4, 2010

Former South African first-class representative Kruger van Wyk (30) is now eligible for the Black Caps and looks poised to have a crack at making the test side as a wicketkeeper, provided he can force his way into the Central Districts line-up ahead of veteran Bevan Griggs.

Former Zimbabwe under-19 and now Auckland all-rounder Colin de Grandhomme (23) will be cleared to play by the start of this season while left-arm pace bowler Neil Wagner (24) will have fulfilled his residency qualifications by the end of the season after playing provincially in South Africa and having a couple of stints as the Proteas' 12th man.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Unfortunately I get the feeling if you sent Guptill back to Auckland he'd simply train his crosshairs on the still plentiful short-a*** medium-pacers and spinners who'll pitch it up to him. Not bagging Guptill's intelligence personally, but when a NZ batsman with a well-established nickname gets dropped, I'm expecting the 'your wrong! me good! get this up ya!' reaction rather than anything more contemplative.

Will How cut across his drives and put us through huge LBW shouts every second ball if we drop Guptill? Maybe, I'd probably say it's worth giving him a run at #3 though.

I'd also put Ryder at #4 fitness-permitting due to 'Crazed Cow Corner Ross' making too many appearances apropos of nothing in tests for my liking. Ryder a much greater risk of getting in and running short of partners IMO.
 
Last edited:

Debris

International 12th Man
At first glance his test record is respectable, with a century and four fifties from 13 tests at an average of 33.
Desperate times when that record is considered respectable for an opening bat. NZ should aim a bit higher, particularly in these batsmen-friendly times.
 

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
To be honest, the NZ Top 6 should read something like

1. McCullum, 2. McIntosh, 3. Taylor, 4. Ryder, 5. Williamson, 6. Vettori.
.
Taylor's too high at 3 for mine, personally prefer him at 4 or 5
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
The only argument I see for keeping Guptil is to let him grow and learn at the top level. We might as well build a player for the future mentality. ie why play Sinclair there who is never going to get better.

I voted no however on the grounds that we dropped Flynn who has a better average than Guptil (if you take out the Bangers factor) 26.63 vs Guptil 24.36

If we were going to keep players in the team because they are young and have potential then we would have kept Flynn. But we didn't keep him because he had technical deficiencies. And Guptil has technical issues (although I note his backfoot defence has improved).

Basically it just isn't realistic to keep a non performing player in the team because the selectors will get the sack. They need to ensure there is accountability for performances or they have not done their job.
 

Blocky

Banned
The idea that Sinclair wasn't worth a long run in the side always makes me wonder. He has been the most consistent first class cricketer since Martin Crowe. He showed he can score in tough conditions against South Africa and showed he had the patience to convert scores into big innings, all that was missing was consistency at the top level.

It doesn't help him that he's played more innings against Australia than any other side and did terribly against them (as did near every other NZ batsman). Take into account that in he was never really given a prolonged "spot" in the side and also batted in every position from #2 to #6 and you've really got to feel for him.

His average without Australia in the mix is 40.67, very respectable for a kiwi batsman and for a guy that spent more time wondering about his place in the side than actually playing for NZ.

He didn't get on with Fleming from what I understand and that cost him his place in a couple of situations. Had he been given the same amount of chances as Fleming, McMillan, Astle, Horne, etc - then who knows, potentially he could have made his average closer to his first class average, he certainly had the talent to do so.

In the case of Guptill, if he DOES go back and dominate at first class level - that's great. The guy hasn't done that yet, he hasn't shown consistency at FC and he hasn't dominated attacks, he needs to do that and develop consistency in order to come back.

Check guys like Steve Waugh for a sign of "Oh ****, I need to change my game to make it at the top level" and ask why very few NZers have managed this.
 

Flem274*

123/5
The idea that Sinclair wasn't worth a long run in the side always makes me wonder. He has been the most consistent first class cricketer since Martin Crowe. He showed he can score in tough conditions against South Africa and showed he had the patience to convert scores into big innings, all that was missing was consistency at the top level.

It doesn't help him that he's played more innings against Australia than any other side and did terribly against them (as did near every other NZ batsman). Take into account that in he was never really given a prolonged "spot" in the side and also batted in every position from #2 to #6 and you've really got to feel for him.

His average without Australia in the mix is 40.67, very respectable for a kiwi batsman and for a guy that spent more time wondering about his place in the side than actually playing for NZ.

He didn't get on with Fleming from what I understand and that cost him his place in a couple of situations. Had he been given the same amount of chances as Fleming, McMillan, Astle, Horne, etc - then who knows, potentially he could have made his average closer to his first class average, he certainly had the talent to do so.

In the case of Guptill, if he DOES go back and dominate at first class level - that's great. The guy hasn't done that yet, he hasn't shown consistency at FC and he hasn't dominated attacks, he needs to do that and develop consistency in order to come back.

Check guys like Steve Waugh for a sign of "Oh ****, I need to change my game to make it at the top level" and ask why very few NZers have managed this.
Sinclair has said himself on this forum he gets on really well with Fleming.

Skippy was given a good run at first, and after ten tests his form deserted him on the most part and he was eventually dropped after 17 I think? That's fair enough, but the merry go round he joined after that was disgraceful. Sometimes I do suspect there are some players the selectors want to see succeed over others for whatever reason, and Sinclair was always one who got a harder run than the likes of the Marshalls for example.
 

Blocky

Banned
Sinclair has said himself on this forum he gets on really well with Fleming.

Skippy was given a good run at first, and after ten tests his form deserted him on the most part and he was eventually dropped after 17 I think? That's fair enough, but the merry go round he joined after that was disgraceful. Sometimes I do suspect there are some players the selectors want to see succeed over others for whatever reason, and Sinclair was always one who got a harder run than the likes of the Marshalls for example.
I think Matt is the sort of guy that wouldn't air out dirty washing nor make excuses for himself, he'll feel he never turned it on the way he should have at test level but the news I heard was that he wasn't liked in the team because he was very self-focused. Something I feel all great batsmen need to be.

I wonder had he got a good go at #5 behind the top order for NZ, would we now have a senior guy in the team averaging 45-50 to produce good numbers with the younger players coming through. It's a serious loss for NZ cricket.
 

Top