Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[ImpatientLime]

Not since Ian Botham have England produced a genuine ATG player, Graham Gooch is a borderline case but his career was very much a game of different halfs. In this time every test playing nation have managed to do so with the exception of Bangladesh.

Australia, the West Indies, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Sri Lanka obviously all have obvious candidates over this time period. New Zealand have produced Martin Crowe and Shane Bond whilst Zimbabwe were graced by the genius Andy Flower. England historically have not had a problem producing undisputed greats, but since the 80s they have dried up and during their good spells as a cricketing nation have always been a team that struck you as 'sum is greater than the parts' combo.

There have been in this period players who enjoyed great spells, threatened greatness but ultimately fell short. Gough, Thorpe, Flintoff, Vaughan, Harmison etc.

What is to explain for this phenomena? For a nation with such top notch facilities and resources it does seem very odd.

 

[morgieb]

My guess is that cricket seems very ignored in England - the best athletes would rather play soccer.

However, it might be better asking someone with more local knowledge.

 

[Howe_zat]

Produce one? As in, out of a hat or something?

Because they are incredibly hard to come by. That's essentially the definition of all-time great players. Sometimes a team goes through a purple patch of great players, like Australia five years ago or the Indian batting lineup now. More often they don't.

England have had great teams in the past, like the mid 1950s or late 1920s sides. They'll get their time again, sooner or later.

 

[marc71178]

If you're judging Crowe, Bond and Flower as ATG then I'd suggest England have produced ATGs as well.

 

[ImpatientLime]

If you're judging Crowe, Bond and Flower as ATG then I'd suggest England have produced ATGs as well.

Ok a tad flexible on with the bracketing of players (although I feel Flower comfortably qualifies) but Crowe and Bond are comfortably on a par with anything England have produced in the time period.

 

[morgieb]

If you're judging Crowe, Bond and Flower as ATG then I'd suggest England have produced ATGs as well.

Name one post-Beefy player for England who you think is as good as them.

 

[Howe_zat]

Name one post-Beefy player for England who you think is as good as them.

Gooch, Atherton, Stewart, Trescothick?

Crowe was an excellent batsman and captain but he has neither masses of runs (<6000) nor a stunning average (45) behind him.

Granted, I don't think England have had a bowler of Bond's quality since Botham.

 

[marc71178]

Name one post-Beefy player for England who you think is as good as them.

Gower for one.

 

[robelinda]

I'd probably throw Gower and Thorpe in there. Atherton tried hard but finished with a so so average. Stewart to me was brilliant, he shouldve never moved from opening or number 3, quality quality player. If Englands bowling attack wasnt so bad and the selectors desperate for another Botham then Stewart would never have kept wickets, and just remained a pure batsman.

 

[marc71178]

I'd probably throw Gower and Thorpe in there. Atherton tried hard but finished with a so so average. Stewart to me was brilliant, he shouldve never moved from opening or number 3, quality quality player. If Englands bowling attack wasnt so bad and the selectors desperate for another Botham then Stewart would never have kept wickets, and just remained a pure batsman.

Ironic thing is that for the majority of his career, Stewart with the gloves averaged less than Jack Russell with the gloves - deprived England of a potentially world class opening bat and a world class keeper.

 

[robelinda]

Ironic thing is that for the majority of his career, Stewart with the gloves averaged less than Jack Russell with the gloves - deprived England of a potentially world class opening bat and a world class keeper.

No doubt Alec's best work was as opener, his tons in the WI tour in 94 were ridiculously high class. I'd add his 170 vs Pakistan in 1996, and didnt he make a cracking ton in 1992 vs Pakistan, memory is failing me now!

 

[Debris]

It is not just cricket but great sportsmen have been rare in all sports for a nation of that size. Probably a cultural thing.

 

[morgieb]

Gooch, Atherton, Stewart, Trescothick?

Crowe was an excellent batsman and captain but he has neither masses of runs (<6000) nor a stunning average (45) behind him.

Granted, I don't think England have had a bowler of Bond's quality since Botham.

Crowe and Flower as specialist batsman > all those blokes. Flower's stats are very strong in comparison, particularly given he had to keep and played for a crappy side. Crowe's stats seem to be misleading - he got culled by injury and picked too early. And he still had better stats than most of those blokes.

Plus, Gooch and Gower was around Beefy's era iirc.

 

[Ruckus]

The weather...

 

[smash84]

the weather??

 

[GotSpin]

It is not just cricket but great sportsmen have been rare in all sports for a nation of that size. Probably a cultural thing.

It's all been down hill since WWII

 

[Ruckus]

the weather??

Yes I have a theory the dull weather turns the English into pessimists, which, in turn, drains their confidence and stops them achieving greatness. I call it the 'Whinging Pom theory of mediocrity'.

 

[ImpatientLime]

Can't be having that. In the past decade the english have produced greats that will go down in the annuals in football, rugby union, boxing, motor racing and athletics just to name a few.

 

[Flem274*]

Can't play cricket with all the rain over there.

Martin Crowe>>>>Tresco, Atherton and Stewart. Gooch would be his peer. Those two blokes played extremely well during a period of awesome bowling.

Check out this list of averages from 1985-1995 (qualification 20 tests)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...5;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

[vcs]

I actually sort of buy the weather theory. Not too dissimilar to the reason why India never manages to produce fast bowlers for a country of its size and population.