Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[Blaze 18]

pakistani's and indians are not of the same "racial stock" - this is only true in the punjab region where there is overlap, otherwise pakistan has ethnicities which are cimpletely distinct to other s.asians.

Not true. The Urdu speaking Pakistanis and Pakistani Punjabis make up the majority of Pakistan's population; and these two communities have a lot in common with Indians, particularly those in the North. The Pathans, however, are one group that are distinct.

 

[r3alist]

Not true. The Urdu speaking Pakistanis and Pakistani Punjabis make up the majority of Pakistan's population; and these two communities have a lot in common with Indians, particularly those in the North. The Pathans, however, are one group that are distinct.

that does not change my original point, pakistan does have ethnicities which are completely distinct to indians, india is a big place and partition was messy so there will be some overlap.

but i dont think thats the reason pak seems to produce better bowlers

 

[Uppercut]

Interesting question this. England have usually been crap at cricket for the last twenty years. So it's probably got something to do with that.

To look at it from another perspective, you could ask: why are other countries producing ATG players? Pakistan in particular is a pretty strange case. Especially if you change "ATG" to "phenomenal talent". Why do Pakistan keep getting players like Wasim, Waqar, Inzamam, Saqlain, Younis, Yousuf, Asif.. even Aamer? Without wanting to get into debating the merits of any specific player, England really haven't been producing players of that level. On the other hand, they can call on plenty of solid middle order batsmen or backup swing bowlers to do a job when their front line breaks down. As we saw during the summer, once you shave the top-class surface off the top of Pakistani cricket, there really isn't much at all underneath- especially in batting.

I would maybe hypothesise that coaching and infrastructure are what it takes for maximising the potential of the above-average talents in cricket, but mass participation is what gives a country a good shot at producing some of the seriously good players.

 

[r3alist]

Interesting question this. England have usually been crap at cricket for the last twenty years. So it's probably got something to do with that.

To look at it from another perspective, you could ask: why are other countries producing ATG players? Pakistan in particular is a pretty strange case. Especially if you change "ATG" to "phenomenal talent". Why do Pakistan keep getting players like Wasim, Waqar, Inzamam, Saqlain, Younis, Yousuf, Asif.. even Aamer? Without wanting to get into debating the merits of any specific player, England really haven't been producing players of that level. On the other hand, they can call on plenty of solid middle order batsmen or backup swing bowlers to do a job when their front line breaks down. As we saw during the summer, once you shave the top-class surface off the top of Pakistani cricket, there really isn't much at all underneath- especially in batting.

I would maybe hypothesise that coaching and infrastructure are what it takes for maximising the potential of the above-average talents in cricket, but mass participation is what gives a country a good shot at producing some of the seriously good players.

kids in pakistan dont really play much else

in england cricket is not as popular, not as glamorous and not that easy to play in the way football is - its not looking good for the future imo

pakistan cricket and the pcb are a mess, even with this shambles of an administration pak can find some rough diamonds, but if pak was able to fully utilize its a talent pool in a meritocratic way then i think theres plenty of talent.

 

[ankitj]

If you don't see Andrew Flintoff as a cricketing great the I want to know what is. Anyway, the English have an alternative now. I mean, where does Kevin Pietersen, Andrew Strauss, Jonathon Trott, Matt Prior and Craig Kieswetter come from. In case you wondered the answer is South-Africa. So it appears as if England found a new breeding ground for their next generation superstars.

Andrew Flintoff is over rated. Chris Cairns (a forgotten great) > Flintoff

 

[smash84]

pakistani's and indians are not of the same "racial stock" - this is only true in the punjab region where there is overlap, otherwise pakistan has ethnicities which are cimpletely distinct to other s.asians.

one thing i have noticed is that pakistani's seem to have a higher skill level with their bowling, forget the build argument, its the skill that really sets them apart - look at asif - hardly a big man but he has immense skill

You can see the overlap in Punjab as well as Sindh. The racial stock of people in Sindh is the same as that in the bordering Rajasthan state of India. And Punjab of course was divided into East and West Punjab so that is the same racial stock. Punjab has almost 55% of Pakistan's population and Sindh has about 25%. Only the pathans are a different stock of race who are about 15% of the population. The Balochis make up the rest. So I would say that the racial stock is the same barring 20-25% of Pakistan's population.

I think that skill is something that can be developed. For me it is the talent that someone is gifted with.

Andrew Flintoff is over rated. Chris Cairns (a forgotten great) > Flintoff

I would agree.

 

[robelinda]

Chris Cairns- legend.

 

[NasserFan207]

Gooch is definitely an ATG, amazing player.

Its true though, England seems to produce the 'good' but never the 'great'. That said, there are plenty of English players in recent times who looked like they might end up at that level; Simon Jones, Harmison, Trescothick, Flintoff etc. They just fell away either due to injury or whatever near the end of their careers.

 

[wpdavid]

Interesting question this. England have usually been crap at cricket for the last twenty years. So it's probably got something to do with that.

To look at it from another perspective, you could ask: why are other countries producing ATG players? Pakistan in particular is a pretty strange case. Especially if you change "ATG" to "phenomenal talent". Why do Pakistan keep getting players like Wasim, Waqar, Inzamam, Saqlain, Younis, Yousuf, Asif.. even Aamer? Without wanting to get into debating the merits of any specific player, England really haven't been producing players of that level. On the other hand, they can call on plenty of solid middle order batsmen or backup swing bowlers to do a job when their front line breaks down. As we saw during the summer, once you shave the top-class surface off the top of Pakistani cricket, there really isn't much at all underneath- especially in batting.

I would maybe hypothesise that coaching and infrastructure are what it takes for maximising the potential of the above-average talents in cricket, but mass participation is what gives a country a good shot at producing some of the seriously good players.

It's a fair hypothesis. My one question would be about Australia,as I don't know whether the mass participiation thing takes place there. Certainly cricket is competing with Aus rules and both codes of rugby, unlike in the Asian countries where cricket's by far the dominant sport.

 

[Zinzan]

Gooch is definitely an ATG, amazing player.

Its true though, England seems to produce the 'good' but never the 'great'. That said, there are plenty of English players in recent times who looked like they might end up at that level; Simon Jones, Harmison, Trescothick, Flintoff etc. They just fell away either due to injury or whatever near the end of their careers.

Crowe > Gooch

 

[benchmark00]

In response to the original question:

Because they're a bunch of **** ****s.

 

[morgieb]

In response to the original question:

Because they're a bunch of **** ****s.

Haha, fair call Murphy.

 

[NasserFan207]

Crowe > Gooch

Disagree. They both had different styles, but I'd find it hard to seperate them.

Gooch deserves to be up there simply due to his insane longevity, never mind his multiple worldclass knocks in hostile conditions. Have to support my fellow essex man.

Interested to hear an argument why though.

 

[adwaltoncc]

Media!

I don't think its anything to do with the quality of the players, its the way they are treated in the media. Players in Australia, India, Pakistan etc... are treated like heroes because the media makes a massive deal about cricket. Being a good player only gets you soo far when achieving 'greatness'. The rest is created through cult of the personality and achieving idolic status.

In England we have had players as good as some of the best in the world, but either the player has not had the character (hence the fact this thread started by saying Botham was the last top english player with personality...perhaps Freddy is an exception) or the media has not cared enough about cricket to create the pedestal to place them on.
It also doesn't help if you are a great player in a team that isn't overly successful (e.g. England in the 90's...if they were more successful surely Stewart, Thorpe, Atherton would be more respected).

 

[Briony]

Maybe they don't because the better word is indisputably.

A popular school of thought has been over the years that there's not enough serious cricket played among the working class kids and there is an over-reliance upon posh, public schoolboys. The pull of soccer is obviously significant.

These things can be cyclical though. In ten years time we might be hailing someone from the current crop as a superstar.

In any case the word champion is used too loosely so most countries would have produced very few in the time frame we're looking at.

 

[Evermind]

that does not change my original point, pakistan does have ethnicities which are completely distinct to indians, india is a big place and partition was messy so there will be some overlap.

Waqar, Wasim, Asif, Aamer and even Shoaib Chucktar are all from Punjab. So quite irrelevant - they're from the exact same racial stock as Indian Punjabis.

 

[Faisal1985]

Ian Botham an ATG??

 

[Faisal1985]

Waqar, Wasim, Asif, Aamer and even Shoaib Chucktar are all from Punjab. So quite irrelevant - they're from the exact same racial stock as Indian Punjabis.

Bull ****

 

[S Chanderpaul]

kids in pakistan dont really play much else

in england cricket is not as popular, not as glamorous and not that easy to play in the way football is - its not looking good for the future imo

pakistan cricket and the pcb are a mess, even with this shambles of an administration pak can find some rough diamonds, but if pak was able to fully utilize its a talent pool in a meritocratic way then i think theres plenty of talent.

If anything I'd say the future looks a lot brighter now than it has in a long while.

County cricket at the moment is full of very good young players.

 

[Teja.]

Ian Botham an ATG??

Yeah obv. Not the level of Imran and Miller but Botham and Kapil are definetly ATGs in my book.