Garry Sobers, The Bowler?

[Teja.]

I've been frankly surprised by seeing how many people are opting for Sobers to bowl in their AT XI and while I have him too, It is for purely batting reasons. A SR of 92 is close to horrendous for any genuine bowler of any era and his average is not too great either.

While I admit, I'm all of 17 years old and have watched Sobers bowl only on video, How can any bowler with such statistics be labelled a very good/great bowler let alone a bowler(on his AR strength ofc)fit to hold the ball in an AT team?

About the quality of his bowling deteriorating due to him opting to provide a spin option to his team, Isn't variety only remotely important when you are of about the same quality with both styles of bowling? Isn't bowling a style of bowling which isn't close to as good as your other style harming your team's chances?

 

[Migara]

I've been frankly surprised by seeing how many people are opting for Sobers to bowl in their AT XI and while I have him too, It is for purely batting reasons. A SR of 92 is close to horrendous for any genuine bowler of any era and his average is not too great either.

While I admit, I'm all of 17 years old and have watched Sobers bowl only on video, How can any bowler with such statistics be labelled a very good/great bowler let alone a bowler(on his AR strength ofc)fit to hold the ball in an AT team?

About the quality of his bowling deteriorating due to him opting to provide a spin option to his team, Isn't variety only remotely important when you are of about the same quality with both styles of bowling? Isn't bowling a style of bowling which isn't close to as good as your other style harming your team's chances?

Corresponding to his era SR of 92 is not "horrendous". Even better spinners of his time has SRs of closer to 70. His average of 34 is acceptable and is a clear underestimate of his performance. Sobers bowled pace on spinning wickets, so an additional spinner can be added to the lineup. And he bowled spin on green wickets so a pacer can be added in extra. His Avg of 34 comprised of bowling done under the worst possible conditions. If he did it the other way round, I'd expect him to average 29 - 31 range because then he'll get the best conditions possible.

 

[smash84]

I've been frankly surprised by seeing how many people are opting for Sobers to bowl in their AT XI and while I have him too, It is for purely batting reasons. A SR of 92 is close to horrendous for any genuine bowler of any era and his average is not too great either.

While I admit, I'm all of 17 years old and have watched Sobers bowl only on video, How can any bowler with such statistics be labelled a very good/great bowler let alone a bowler(on his AR strength ofc)fit to hold the ball in an AT team?

About the quality of his bowling deteriorating due to him opting to provide a spin option to his team, Isn't variety only remotely important when you are of about the same quality with both styles of bowling? Isn't bowling a style of bowling which isn't close to as good as your other style harming your team's chances?

LOL..........I seriously thought you had seen most of the greats of the past 30 years live in action ..........your posts are pretty good for a 17 year old.......

I haven't seen much of Gary Sobers but Migara has been able to shed some light on it.

Maybe we can have Bagpath to say something on this and Aussie too. (I think) They are quite knowledgeable about the old timers . But I too have sometimes thought about this point that you have raised.

However I remember Ian Chappell saying recently (and that guy has seen a lot of cricket) that there is as much difference between Sobers and the next all rounder as there is between Bradman and the next batsman. Well it's a bit of a stretch in the sense that for the all rounders the difference might not be that great however he still remains the best all rounder according to most people who have seen him play.

I suggest you go and see some of the footage of Aus Vs Rest of World XI in the 1970s. Especially where Sobers bounces Lillee. And then in his batting smacks Lillee all over the park. Top notch stuff.

 

[fredfertang]

Sobers bowling figures create a misleading impression of his worth as a bowler for several reasons:-

1. Save occasionally with his orthodox left arm spin he was an attacking bowler looking to get wickets and prepared to give a few runs away

2. Wickets in the Caribbean where he played so many of his tests were pretty docile in his time

3. The West Indian attack was pretty ordinary at the end of his career - at almost 38 he was opening the bowling in his final Test

4. He was usually the extra bowler thus Hall and Griffith as the main seamers would get the new ball and/or choice of ends - Sobers would usually bowl uphill into the wind. When he was bowling spin it was similar with Lance Gibbs getting the choices

 

[G.I.Joe]

Sobers bowling figures create a misleading impression of his worth as a bowler for several reasons:-

1. Save occasionally with his orthodox left arm spin he was an attacking bowler looking to get wickets and prepared to give a few runs away

2. Wickets in the Caribbean where he played so many of his tests were pretty docile in his time

3. The West Indian attack was pretty ordinary at the end of his career - at almost 38 he was opening the bowling in his final Test

4. He was usually the extra bowler thus Hall and Griffith as the main seamers would get the new ball and/or choice of ends - Sobers would usually bowl uphill into the wind. When he was bowling spin it was similar with Lance Gibbs getting the choices

So you're saying he was a Flat Track Bully as a batsman?

 

[smash84]

so you're saying he was a flat track bully as a batsman? :-o

lol.......

 

[fredfertang]

So you're saying he was a Flat Track Bully as a batsman?

No - I'm responding to the opening post

 

[ankitj]

While we are harsh on a batting all-rounder who averages about 33, we are perfectly OK with a bowling all-rounder who averages about 35 with the bat, when the two are actually equivalent.

But that's the nature of the game. Thing with batting all-rounders is that they may not be used often enough. Bowling all-rounders whereas would get chances to bowl very regularly. That is why perhaps, we have only two names of great batting all-rounders: Kallis and Sobers. Great bowling all-rounders OTH are plenty.

Even I had selected Sobers as a batsman and 5 others as bowlers. But when cricinfo didn't let me pick 3 all-rounders, I actually dropped Sobers to keep Hadlee and Imran.

 

[Teja.]

Sobers bowling figures create a misleading impression of his worth as a bowler for several reasons:-

1. Save occasionally with his orthodox left arm spin he was an attacking bowler looking to get wickets and prepared to give a few runs away

2. Wickets in the Caribbean where he played so many of his tests were pretty docile in his time

3. The West Indian attack was pretty ordinary at the end of his career - at almost 38 he was opening the bowling in his final Test

4. He was usually the extra bowler thus Hall and Griffith as the main seamers would get the new ball and/or choice of ends - Sobers would usually bowl uphill into the wind. When he was bowling spin it was similar with Lance Gibbs getting the choices

While the last 3 points are reasonable and insightful, His bowling statistics seem to suggest the direct opposite of the first. He seems to have a miserly economy rate and a very high SR tstl.

I wonder if his career which is about twice the size of a typical pacer's career has anything to do with the statistics actually. It is perfectly reasonable for a pacer to perform at a good level for 10 years while not being very effective for the remaining years. I wonder if this was the case with Sobers.

 

[smash84]

While we are harsh on a batting all-rounder who averages about 33, we are perfectly OK with a bowling all-rounder who averages about 35 with the bat, when the two are actually equivalent.

But that's the nature of the game. Thing with batting all-rounders is that they may not be used often enough. Bowling all-rounders whereas would get chances to bowl very regularly. That is why perhaps, we have only two names of great batting all-rounders: Kallis and Sobers. Great bowling all-rounders OTH are plenty.

Even I had selected Sobers as a batsman and 5 others as bowlers. But when cricinfo didn't let me pick 3 all-rounders, I actually dropped Sobers to keep Hadlee and Imran.

How are they equivalent Ankit????

IMO bowling well looks like a much tougher job.

 

[ankitj]

How are they equivalent Ankit????

IMO bowling well looks like a much tougher job.

Oh, I don't have anything statistical to prove that. A batsman with average 35 and a bowler with average 33 would be regarded similar. Just a gut feel sort.

 

[smash84]

Oh, I don't have anything statistical to prove that. A batsman with average 35 and a bowler with average 33 would be regarded similar. Just a gut feel sort.

I don't know. A batsman with an average of 35 looks somewhat better than a bowler with an average of 33. I don't know. This is also a gut feel.

I also feel that bowling is a much tougher art to master than batting. That is my subjective experience. I am sure a lot of people might think otherwise.

 

[ankitj]

I don't know. A batsman with an average of 35 looks somewhat better than a bowler with an average of 33. I don't know. This is also a gut feel.

I also feel that bowling is a much tougher art to master than batting. That is my subjective experience. I am sure a lot of people might think otherwise.

I thought you were going to argue other way round

Consider this - Zaheer Khan averages 32.46 and he is considered a decent bowler. Can't think of a half decent batsman who averages close to 35!

 

[Ikki]

This one has been debated a lot.

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/23849-garry-sobers-master-black-magic.html

 

[smash84]

I thought you were going to argue other way round

Consider this - Zaheer Khan averages 32.46 and he is considered a decent bowler. Can't think of a half decent batsman who averages close to 35!

Salman "the match fixer" Butt seemed like a half decent batsman. His average is around 30. I am sure there must be better batsman with an average of 35.

 

[Teja.]

I thought you were going to argue other way round

Consider this - Zaheer Khan averages 32.46 and he is considered a decent bowler. Can't think of a half decent batsman who averages close to 35!

But that largely is because Zaheer is a 00s bowler though. Batsmen in the 80s/90s who averaged 35-40(Hughes, Atherton et al.) are usually held in higher regard than pacers who managed to average 30-35.

 

[smash84]

This one has been debated a lot.

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/23849-garry-sobers-master-black-magic.html

Oh....thanks for the link Ikki.....didnt know about this one...

 

[Avada Kedavra]

A bowling average of 34 is hardly bad.It is more or less what the Zaheers,Andersons and Hilfenhaus' average and they are among the premier fast bowlers today.As someone mentioned,the Carribean pitches then were pretty placid back then,comparable to some of the roads on offer today.

As for whether he should be included as a bowler alone in an AT side-I don't think so.I would always have 5 frontline bowlers in my team,and Sobers was not one-whatever the stats might suggest.

Imo,a bowling all rounder is inherently more useful to a side than a batting one,which is why I'd rather have the Imran Khans over the Sobers' in my AT side.

Of course,a good case for Sobers can be made for his batting alone.Then again I would have Viv and Lara from WI alone over him,but that is just my view.

On a slighty unrelated note,wasn't there an article on cricinfo sometime back suggesting that Kallis is Sobers' superior,bot h as a batsman and a bowler?

 

[Ikki]

It's not that his average is terrible; his SR is. Even if we were to conclude that in his career he was primarily a spinner; his overall SR is still higher than the average SR of his time - meaning he was worse than the average spinner. Yet, he also played as a pace bowler, whose SRs are much lower - and which should make his SR much lower - yet it isn't. It means his SR was not only pretty bad for a spinner, but also for a pacer.

 

[Slifer]

Seriously, hasnt this argument been done to death? So Sobers wasnt an all time great bowler, no AR in history was great at both disciplines. No doubt a bowling all rounder is of greater value to a team (Imo) than a batting allrounder. But in an all time team Sobers moon walks his way in because (Bradman apart) he is as good/better or negligibly inferiror to ne other great batsman, but a much better fielder than most and he can bowl too.