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Sachin's stats against ATG Fast Bowlers

Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
In another thread, one user posted modest stats of Viv Richards against Pakistan and Australia, and claimed him to be over-rated. I have applied similar logic to Sachin Tendulkar's career. The results are quite damning. Do the stats of all great batsmen fall spectacularly (like Sachin's) against truly great fast bowlers?

<From that Post>

In Tests, Sachin averages a modest 36.77 against Australia when McGrath plays.

It is very noticeable that most of his Test runs/stellar performances against Australia have invariably come only when McGrath was absent, basically against second rate (good, but not great) fast bowlers like Brett Lee, Mitchell Johnson, Kasper, Damien Fleming, Paul Riefel etc. Whenever McGrath is absent from the Australian attack, Sachin's average almost doubles (averages nearly 70 against Australia when McGrath is absent!!!).


Against other great fast bowlers whom he faced at the peak of their powers in Test Match cricket, Sachin averages a pathetic 32 against South Africa whenever Allan Donald has played.

I really don't know whether to include Wasim Akram here since India-Pak never played a series for nearly 10 years (between 1989 to 99 for political reasons) during which Akram was at his absolute peak. But Akram bowled very very well in 1999 when they played each other. In any case, Tendulkar averages an equally pathetic 32 against Pakistan whenever Wasim Akram has played.

Once again, he revelled against the respective teams (South Africa and Pakistan) when these bowlers were absent.

Against the 3 greatest fast bowlers of his era, whom he faced in more than one Test series, McGrath, Donald and Akram, Sachin has scored 1719 Test runs at a modest average of 34.3 (compared to his career average of 56).


Here is the clincher:

Of all the Test series Sachin has played against these great fast bowlers (McGrath,Donald,Akram), more than 7 series including home and away, only once did he average more than 50 in a series!, that too just barely, when he averaged 50.66 against McGrath in 2000-01 series at home in India. Even more stunning is the fact that only once was he India's best batsman in all the Test series against these bowlers (so much for him being the batting mainstay of India against great attacks). This is the very definition of being over-rated.

The only truly great fast bowler Sachin has had some success against is Curtly Ambrose. But Sachin never faced Ambrose (or the West Indian attack) at their peak. He played only one Test series against Ambrose, that too in 1997, on the dead pitches of the Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws). Ambrose was 35 years old and couple of years away from retirement back then.


Amazingly, the trend of Tendulkar's poor stats against great fast bowlers continues in ODIs. In spite of all the batsmen-favoured rules and pitches, Sachin's stats against these bowlers in ODIs are equally pathetic! A measly average of 31 (2222 runs @ 31.64) in ODIs after playing 70+ ODIs against McGrath/Donald/Akram. Only 2 of Sachin's ODI hundreds came against these bowlers (both against McGrath in the sub-continent). In 26 ODI innings against Donald, Sachin managed to cross fifty just 3 times!
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
Hence why none of his innings were included in wisden's top 100. There's probably 2 or 3 now though that would be included. I wish they would update that list, interesting stuff indeed.

rediff.com: cricket channel: Top 100 Batsmen of all time

Before that list came out I used to have to tell people how much I admired Taylor's 144 in 91, the list says all I need to. Mark waugh's 116 in 97 was magnificent too.
 

Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Hence why none of his innings were included in wisden's top 100. There's probably 2 or 3 now though that would be included. I wish they would update that list, interesting stuff indeed.

rediff.com: cricket channel: Top 100 Batsmen of all time

Before that list came out I used to have to tell people how much I admired Taylor's 144 in 91, the list says all I need to. Mark waugh's 116 in 97 was magnificent too.
Yes I remember Taylor had a very good series against Windies in 91. IIRC, a hundred and 3 or 4 fifties in that series. Back then I used to follow most Test matches against Windies (making note of which batsmen were successful against their formidable pace attack).

How come Wisden missed out on Gilchrist's spectacular (at almost run-a-ball) 149* against Akram/Younis/Akhtar/Saqlain in 1999 at Hobart? He walked in when Aussies were tottering at 125 for 6 and chasing 360+ in the fourth innings, he was the last recognized batsman, it was his debut Test series (just 2nd Test match of his career) against a very formidable attack. He batted as if it was a club level match. Spanking all the great bowlers to all parts of the ground. It was good clean hitting. It was easily the greatest Test innings I have followed.
2nd Test: Australia v Pakistan at Hobart, Nov 18-22, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

One of the very few instances in Test match cricket where great fast bowlers were dominated on a decent pitch in the fourth innings, that too under great pressure.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
In another thread, one user posted modest stats of Viv Richards against Pakistan and Australia, and claimed him to be over-rated. I have applied similar logic to Sachin Tendulkar's career. The results are quite damning. Do the stats of all great batsmen fall spectacularly (like Sachin's) against truly great fast bowlers?

<From that Post>

In Tests, Sachin averages a modest 36.77 against Australia when McGrath plays.

It is very noticeable that most of his Test runs/stellar performances against Australia have invariably come only when McGrath was absent, basically against second rate (good, but not great) fast bowlers like Brett Lee, Mitchell Johnson, Kasper, Damien Fleming, Paul Riefel etc. Whenever McGrath is absent from the Australian attack, Sachin's average almost doubles (averages nearly 70 against Australia when McGrath is absent!!!).


Against other great fast bowlers whom he faced at the peak of their powers in Test Match cricket, Sachin averages a pathetic 32 against South Africa whenever Allan Donald has played.

I really don't know whether to include Wasim Akram here since India-Pak never played a series for nearly 10 years (between 1989 to 99 for political reasons) during which Akram was at his absolute peak. But Akram bowled very very well in 1999 when they played each other. In any case, Tendulkar averages an equally pathetic 32 against Pakistan whenever Wasim Akram has played.

Once again, he revelled against the respective teams (South Africa and Pakistan) when these bowlers were absent.

Against the 3 greatest fast bowlers of his era, whom he faced in more than one Test series, McGrath, Donald and Akram, Sachin has scored 1719 Test runs at a modest average of 34.3 (compared to his career average of 56).


Here is the clincher:

Of all the Test series Sachin has played against these great fast bowlers (McGrath,Donald,Akram), more than 7 series including home and away, only once did he average more than 50 in a series!, that too just barely, when he averaged 50.66 against McGrath in 2000-01 series at home in India. Even more stunning is the fact that only once was he India's best batsman in all the Test series against these bowlers (so much for him being the batting mainstay of India against great attacks). This is the very definition of being over-rated.

The only truly great fast bowler Sachin has had some success against is Curtly Ambrose. But Sachin never faced Ambrose (or the West Indian attack) at their peak. He played only one Test series against Ambrose, that too in 1997, on the dead pitches of the Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws). Ambrose was 35 years old and couple of years away from retirement back then.


Amazingly, the trend of Tendulkar's poor stats against great fast bowlers continues in ODIs. In spite of all the batsmen-favoured rules and pitches, Sachin's stats against these bowlers in ODIs are equally pathetic! A measly average of 31 (2222 runs @ 31.64) in ODIs after playing 70+ ODIs against McGrath/Donald/Akram. Only 2 of Sachin's ODI hundreds came against these bowlers (both against McGrath in the sub-continent). In 26 ODI innings against Donald, Sachin managed to cross fifty just 3 times!

Very interesting analysis indeed. I wonder what some of the other posters like Migara, Bagpath, Slifer, Prince, Ankitj will have to say about this.

But I do believe that your analysis makes for a strong case regarding the greatness of Richards.
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
Yes I remember Taylor had a very good series against Windies in 91. IIRC, a hundred and 3 or 4 fifties in that series. Back then I used to follow most Test matches against Windies (making note of which batsmen were successful against their formidable pace attack).

How come Wisden missed out on Gilchrist's spectacular (at almost run-a-ball) 149* against Akram/Younis/Akhtar/Saqlain in 1999 at Hobart? He walked in when Aussies were tottering at 125 for 6 and chasing 360+ in the fourth innings, he was the last recognized batsman, it was his debut Test series (just 2nd Test match of his career) against a very formidable attack. He batted as if it was a club level match. Spanking all the great bowlers to all parts of the ground. It was good clean hitting. It was easily the greatest Test innings I have followed.
2nd Test: Australia v Pakistan at Hobart, Nov 18-22, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

One of the very few instances in Test match cricket where great fast bowlers were dominated on a decent pitch in the fourth innings, that too under great pressure.
Agree, also Steve Waugh's ton in the first innings of 3rd test 97 Ashes was a gem.

In regards to Sachin's average v SA with Donald, Steve Waugh must have averaged way over 50. If anything Steve Waugh is underrated these days. Donald has said the two players he found most hard to bowl to were the Waugh twins, but Steve in particular.
 
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Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Interesting the Initial analysis did not include Ambrose ,Walsh and Younis and Tendulkar averages better against them.

57 against Ambrose.
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

66 against Walsh-
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

42 in matches involving Younis,though only 4. Also 40 in matches involving Pollock and 45 against Steyn.


Besides it is also very selective to include only Pacers,what about all time great spinners which this generation has seen with regards to Murali and Warne?

He averages 49 in Matches Involving Murali ,and 61 in Matches Involving Warne.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com
 

Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Interesting the Initial analysis did not include Ambrose ,Walsh and Younis and Tendulkar averages better against them.

57 against Ambrose.
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

66 against Walsh-
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

42 in matches involving Younis,though only 4. Also 40 in matches involving Pollock and 45 against Steyn.


Besides it is also very selective to include only Pacers,what about all time great spinners which this generation has seen with regards to Murali and Warne?

He averages 49 in Matches Involving Murali ,and 61 in Matches Involving Warne.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com
I did include Ambrose in the original post. Please read the original post in the "Viv Richards over-rated" thread. The only time Sachin faced Ambrose was in 1997 against a 35 year old Ambrose clearly past his best and on the dead wickets of Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws with Sidhu scoring double ton in one of them). I never recall Sachin facing a prime Ambrose or a full-strength WIPQ (West Indian Pace Quartret) in Test match cricket.
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
I did include Ambrose in the original post. Please read the original post in the "Viv Richards over-rated" thread. The only time Sachin faced Ambrose was in 1997 against a 35 year old Ambrose clearly past his best and on the dead wickets of Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws with Sidhu scoring double ton in one of them). I never recall Sachin facing a prime Ambrose or a full-strength WIPQ (West Indian Pace Quartret) in Test match cricket.
Great ,so now you are factoring in dead wickets in the Carribean ,but not the Specially prepared low scoring Wickets in South Africa when India tours there where a average of 35 to 40 is par for course.

Besides if you are discounting the Matches involving Ambrose for Age ,how about discounting the 4 matches he played against Wasim as a 16 yr old or the Matches he played against Donald in south Africa early in his career at the age of 18.

And as for Mcgrath, his record is seriously damaged by the series in 2004/2005 where he was playing injured and was rushed back too quickly into the fold to try and save India from a home loss.

Either you are selective or you are not.You can't really have the cake and eat it too.
 

Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Interesting the Initial analysis did not include Ambrose ,Walsh and Younis and Tendulkar averages better against them.

57 against Ambrose.
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

66 against Walsh-
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

42 in matches involving Younis,though only 4. Also 40 in matches involving Pollock and 45 against Steyn.


Besides it is also very selective to include only Pacers,what about all time great spinners which this generation has seen with regards to Murali and Warne?

He averages 49 in Matches Involving Murali ,and 61 in Matches Involving Warne.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com
It is subjective. I have seen several batsmen from Lara to Tendulkar to Sidhu to even Ravi Shastri and Nayan Mongia consistently thrash the living daylights out of world's greatest spinners like Warne and Murali, even in a Test match on spin friendly wickets. I have not seen a batsman consistently dominate a fast bowler like Malcolm Marshall or Ambrose (at his peak 88-93) or Andy Roberts in Test match cricket. Yes, you might find one odd innings like Gavaskar's aggressive century at Delhi against Marshall in 1983-84 series, or Fredrick's 169 at Perth against Thommo and Lillee in 1975-76 series or Kim Hughes performance against WIPQ in the early 80s. But those are exceptions. Consistently dominating really great fast bowlers (of Lillee-McGrath-Marshall class) in Test match cricket, to me is real batsmanship.

Richards, and to a lesser extent Adam Gilchrist, were the only batsmen who did this with some degree of consistency. This is exactly why Imran worships Richards. Again, it is subjective. These are just my views. It is not necessary for you to agree.
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
Sachin scored a great hundred in 1992 vs SA with Donald, dont know why you want to discount that.
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
It is subjective. I have seen several batsmen from Lara to Tendulkar to Sidhu to even Ravi Shastri and Nayan Mongia consistently thrash the living daylights out of world's greatest spinners like Warne and Murali, even in a Test match on spin friendly wickets. I have not seen a batsman consistently dominate a fast bowler like Malcolm Marshall or Ambrose (at his peak 88-93) or Andy Roberts in Test match cricket. Yes, you might find one odd innings like Gavaskar's aggressive century at Delhi against Marshall in 1983-84 series, or Fredrick's 169 at Perth against Thommo and Lillee in 1975-76 series or Kim Hughes performance against WIPQ in the early 80s. But those are exceptions. Consistently dominating really great fast bowlers (of Lillee-McGrath-Marshall class) in Test match cricket, to me is real batsmanship.

Richards, and to a lesser extent Adam Gilchrist, were the only batsmen who did this with some degree of consistency. This is exactly why Imran worships Richards. Again, it is subjective. These are just my views. It is not necessary for you to agree.
Great post. Viv was feared for what he could do in one hour of a test match. I recall his sensational innings on day 1 before lunch vs Australia at Adelaide, probably 81/82 from memory. He tore Lillee apart, it was absolutely awesome.
 

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