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Sachin's stats against ATG Fast Bowlers

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
I did say his record was still good, do stats tell you how many times he beat the bat or his bowling speeds? Come on.
Bloody Hell.

So scoring 180 runs in 3 test matches tells a player was "pathetic" but stats spread over 50 odd test matches don't tell you when the bowler was better.

Bowling speed is a overrated thing,as it is . Ambrose though got slower,at the same time he got a lot more wiser.
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
Bloody Hell.

So scoring 180 runs in 3 test matches tells a player was "pathetic" but stats spread over 50 odd test matches don't tell you when the bowler was better.

Bowling speed is a overrated thing,as it is . Ambrose though got slower,at the same time he got a lot more wiser.
Never said anything about him becoming worse, just less menacing and fast. Why are you having a go at me again? I dont know what you are referring to with the 180 runs in 3 tests.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
I don't think this thread is going to lead to any meaningful debate. The OP has made his point and others have responded with their disagreements. Now the thread is just headed toward flame wars.
 
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Aisforalta

Cricket Spectator
I am always amazed by people's selective treatment of stats. Like as a statistic student it just makes my skin curl under, total declaration - I am a big fan of Sachin but even if I was not this selective treatment would have still made me cringe. Averages mean anything when you compare them over a significantly large sample set. If you really wanna do a statistical analysis about Sachin being bad against top bowlers, I suggest at least put up some legwork and don't cherry pick go, I can bet if I do this to any other batsman and pick only three bowlers they performed worse in their career against (just a virtue of how averages work, I could find holes in any batsman except for may be Don Bradman and he played in a different Era).

Also your hatred for Sachin and your bias is clearly visible in your analysis believe it or not if you have to put this much effort to criticize him I guess it proves how amazing he truly was. I know you are salty because someone criticized Viv but like if you get down on the levels of pig you will get muddy. Also if you really have any idea of cricket you would understand that why people said Sachin was india's only hope (think 90's). I mean steave Waugh quoted "he is half the battle" its an indicator (not a statistical proof, a statistical proof will require to much work and I don't like half arsing my self to cherry pick and prove what is clearly my bias) of what the perception was back then.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Tbh, I like the idea of the OP. Viv is a personal hero of mine and if folks on here have the temerity to criticize him then no one, not even Sachin is above the same criticism. Fair is fair.
 

Slifer

International Captain
In another thread, one user posted modest stats of Viv Richards against Pakistan and Australia, and claimed him to be over-rated. I have applied similar logic to Sachin Tendulkar's career. The results are quite damning. Do the stats of all great batsmen fall spectacularly (like Sachin's) against truly great fast bowlers?

<From that Post>

In Tests, Sachin averages a modest 36.77 against Australia when McGrath plays.

It is very noticeable that most of his Test runs/stellar performances against Australia have invariably come only when McGrath was absent
, basically against second rate (good, but not great) fast bowlers like Brett Lee, Mitchell Johnson, Kasper, Damien Fleming, Paul Riefel etc. Whenever McGrath is absent from the Australian attack, Sachin's average almost doubles (averages nearly 70 against Australia when McGrath is absent!!!).


Against other great fast bowlers whom he faced at the peak of their powers in Test Match cricket, Sachin averages a pathetic 32 against South Africa whenever Allan Donald has played.

I really don't know whether to include Wasim Akram here since India-Pak never played a series for nearly 10 years (between 1989 to 99 for political reasons) during which Akram was at his absolute peak. But Akram bowled very very well in 1999 when they played each other. In any case, Tendulkar averages an equally pathetic 32 against Pakistan whenever Wasim Akram has played.

Once again, he revelled against the respective teams (South Africa and Pakistan) when these bowlers were absent.

Against the 3 greatest fast bowlers of his era, whom he faced in more than one Test series, McGrath, Donald and Akram, Sachin has scored 1719 Test runs at a modest average of 34.3 (compared to his career average of 56).


Here is the clincher:

Of all the Test series Sachin has played against these great fast bowlers (McGrath,Donald,Akram), more than 7 series including home and away, only once did he average more than 50 in a series!, that too just barely, when he averaged 50.66 against McGrath in 2000-01 series at home in India. Even more stunning is the fact that only once was he India's best batsman in all the Test series against these bowlers (so much for him being the batting mainstay of India against great attacks). This is the very definition of being over-rated.

The only truly great fast bowler Sachin has had some success against is Curtly Ambrose. But Sachin never faced Ambrose (or the West Indian attack) at their peak. He played only one Test series against Ambrose, that too in 1997, on the dead pitches of the Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws). Ambrose was 35 years old and couple of years away from retirement back then.


Amazingly, the trend of Tendulkar's poor stats against great fast bowlers continues in ODIs. In spite of all the batsmen-favoured rules and pitches, Sachin's stats against these bowlers in ODIs are equally pathetic! A measly average of 31 (2222 runs @ 31.64) in ODIs after playing 70+ ODIs against McGrath/Donald/Akram. Only 2 of Sachin's ODI hundreds came against these bowlers (both against McGrath in the sub-continent). In 26 ODI innings against Donald, Sachin managed to cross fifty just 3 times!
Can you send me the link to the person who decided that Viv was overrated....
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
I don't think this thread is going to lead to any meaningful debate. The OP has made his point and others have responded with their disagreements. Now the thread is just headed toward flame wars.
This post indicates that Fusion was going to close the thread, but it proved beyond his wisdom.
 

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
I am always amazed by people's selective treatment of stats. Like as a statistic student it just makes my skin curl under, total declaration - I am a big fan of Sachin but even if I was not this selective treatment would have still made me cringe. Averages mean anything when you compare them over a significantly large sample set. If you really wanna do a statistical analysis about Sachin being bad against top bowlers, I suggest at least put up some legwork and don't cherry pick go, I can bet if I do this to any other batsman and pick only three bowlers they performed worse in their career against (just a virtue of how averages work, I could find holes in any batsman except for may be Don Bradman and he played in a different Era).

Also your hatred for Sachin and your bias is clearly visible in your analysis believe it or not if you have to put this much effort to criticize him I guess it proves how amazing he truly was. I know you are salty because someone criticized Viv but like if you get down on the levels of pig you will get muddy. Also if you really have any idea of cricket you would understand that why people said Sachin was india's only hope (think 90's). I mean steave Waugh quoted "he is half the battle" its an indicator (not a statistical proof, a statistical proof will require to much work and I don't like half arsing my self to cherry pick and prove what is clearly my bias) of what the perception was back then.
Good analysis. You just failed to account for the fact that Sachin was a really, really, really bad bat.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Very interesting analysis indeed. I wonder what some of the other posters like Migara, Bagpath, Slifer, Prince, Ankitj will have to say about this.

But I do believe that your analysis makes for a strong case regarding the greatness of Richards.
It is interesting. But in the case of Richards, it is spin you have to consider. And interestingly, Richards never faced equivalent quality spin, compared to quality of pace that Tendulkar played. And thinking little bit more, he may not have even faced quality pace that Tendulkar played. However to Viv managed to do well against three of the best in his era, Hadlee, Imran and Wasim well. He played Qadir, Underwood and Chandrasekhar magnificently (to be fair to Chandra he was getting ready to hang up his boots when Viv peaked). The only one that has given Viv trouble is Narendra Hirwani, where Viv averages half that of pathetic 32 against him. Then we know some batsmen have their kryptonites even the bowlers care crap. Harbhajan to Ponting, Brendon Julian to Hooper and Dion Nash to Tendulkar were there, why not Hirwani to Viv?
 

Slifer

International Captain
Viv also made runs vs a guy named Dennis Lillee and co that too in Australia (never in the WI). And also Kapil Dev, who up til this point was India's best pacemen.

One last thing I'll say, Viv never faced any minnow or absolutely subpar attacks ala Bangladesh or Zimbabwe.....
 

Chrish

International Debutant
Viv’s record against his own bowlers is not actually that great.. Averages 39 in over 100+ innings in island games..

Look every player has holes in his resume. After all, Bradman wasn’t able to overcome biggest challenge of his era which was to bat well on stickies..

This is not necessarily an argument against these players.. Goes to show you can make any player look less great by molding stats.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Viv’s record against his own bowlers is not actually that great.. Averages 39 in over 100+ innings in island games..

Look every player has holes in his resume. After all, Bradman wasn’t able to overcome biggest challenge of his era which was to bat well on stickies..

This is not necessarily an argument against these players.. Goes to show you can make any player look less great by molding stats.
True. Which is why a certain set of fans need not get too worked up when their hero is critiqued. Viv is a hero mine but even I realise he is a bit overrated.....
 

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