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Thread: Sachin's stats against ATG Fast Bowlers

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cevno View Post
    Interesting the Initial analysis did not include Ambrose ,Walsh and Younis and Tendulkar averages better against them.

    57 against Ambrose.
    All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

    66 against Walsh-
    All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

    42 in matches involving Younis,though only 4. Also 40 in matches involving Pollock and 45 against Steyn.


    Besides it is also very selective to include only Pacers,what about all time great spinners which this generation has seen with regards to Murali and Warne?

    He averages 49 in Matches Involving Murali ,and 61 in Matches Involving Warne.

    All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com
    I did include Ambrose in the original post. Please read the original post in the "Viv Richards over-rated" thread. The only time Sachin faced Ambrose was in 1997 against a 35 year old Ambrose clearly past his best and on the dead wickets of Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws with Sidhu scoring double ton in one of them). I never recall Sachin facing a prime Ambrose or a full-strength WIPQ (West Indian Pace Quartret) in Test match cricket.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altaican View Post
    I did include Ambrose in the original post. Please read the original post in the "Viv Richards over-rated" thread. The only time Sachin faced Ambrose was in 1997 against a 35 year old Ambrose clearly past his best and on the dead wickets of Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws with Sidhu scoring double ton in one of them). I never recall Sachin facing a prime Ambrose or a full-strength WIPQ (West Indian Pace Quartret) in Test match cricket.
    Great ,so now you are factoring in dead wickets in the Carribean ,but not the Specially prepared low scoring Wickets in South Africa when India tours there where a average of 35 to 40 is par for course.

    Besides if you are discounting the Matches involving Ambrose for Age ,how about discounting the 4 matches he played against Wasim as a 16 yr old or the Matches he played against Donald in south Africa early in his career at the age of 18.

    And as for Mcgrath, his record is seriously damaged by the series in 2004/2005 where he was playing injured and was rushed back too quickly into the fold to try and save India from a home loss.

    Either you are selective or you are not.You can't really have the cake and eat it too.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cevno View Post
    Interesting the Initial analysis did not include Ambrose ,Walsh and Younis and Tendulkar averages better against them.

    57 against Ambrose.
    All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

    66 against Walsh-
    All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

    42 in matches involving Younis,though only 4. Also 40 in matches involving Pollock and 45 against Steyn.


    Besides it is also very selective to include only Pacers,what about all time great spinners which this generation has seen with regards to Murali and Warne?

    He averages 49 in Matches Involving Murali ,and 61 in Matches Involving Warne.

    All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com
    It is subjective. I have seen several batsmen from Lara to Tendulkar to Sidhu to even Ravi Shastri and Nayan Mongia consistently thrash the living daylights out of world's greatest spinners like Warne and Murali, even in a Test match on spin friendly wickets. I have not seen a batsman consistently dominate a fast bowler like Malcolm Marshall or Ambrose (at his peak 88-93) or Andy Roberts in Test match cricket. Yes, you might find one odd innings like Gavaskar's aggressive century at Delhi against Marshall in 1983-84 series, or Fredrick's 169 at Perth against Thommo and Lillee in 1975-76 series or Kim Hughes performance against WIPQ in the early 80s. But those are exceptions. Consistently dominating really great fast bowlers (of Lillee-McGrath-Marshall class) in Test match cricket, to me is real batsmanship.

    Richards, and to a lesser extent Adam Gilchrist, were the only batsmen who did this with some degree of consistency. This is exactly why Imran worships Richards. Again, it is subjective. These are just my views. It is not necessary for you to agree.

  4. #19
    International Vice-Captain robelinda's Avatar
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    Sachin scored a great hundred in 1992 vs SA with Donald, dont know why you want to discount that.


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    International Vice-Captain robelinda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altaican View Post
    It is subjective. I have seen several batsmen from Lara to Tendulkar to Sidhu to even Ravi Shastri and Nayan Mongia consistently thrash the living daylights out of world's greatest spinners like Warne and Murali, even in a Test match on spin friendly wickets. I have not seen a batsman consistently dominate a fast bowler like Malcolm Marshall or Ambrose (at his peak 88-93) or Andy Roberts in Test match cricket. Yes, you might find one odd innings like Gavaskar's aggressive century at Delhi against Marshall in 1983-84 series, or Fredrick's 169 at Perth against Thommo and Lillee in 1975-76 series or Kim Hughes performance against WIPQ in the early 80s. But those are exceptions. Consistently dominating really great fast bowlers (of Lillee-McGrath-Marshall class) in Test match cricket, to me is real batsmanship.

    Richards, and to a lesser extent Adam Gilchrist, were the only batsmen who did this with some degree of consistency. This is exactly why Imran worships Richards. Again, it is subjective. These are just my views. It is not necessary for you to agree.
    Great post. Viv was feared for what he could do in one hour of a test match. I recall his sensational innings on day 1 before lunch vs Australia at Adelaide, probably 81/82 from memory. He tore Lillee apart, it was absolutely awesome.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cevno View Post
    Great ,so now you are factoring in dead wickets in the Carribean ,but not the Specially prepared low scoring Wickets in South Africa when India tours there where a average of 35 to 40 is par for course.

    Besides if you are discounting the Matches involving Ambrose for Age ,how about discounting the 4 matches he played against Wasim as a 16 yr old or the Matches he played against Donald in south Africa early in his career at the age of 18.

    And as for Mcgrath, his record is seriously damaged by the series in 2004/2005 where he was playing injured and was rushed back too quickly into the fold to try and save India from a home loss.

    Either you are selective or you are not.You can't really have the cake and eat it too.
    Clearly the fact that Sachin has pretty modest record against Akram/Donald/McGrath pricked you badly, and honestly I like it . Your desperation in pulling Waqar/Ambrose/Walsh/Murali/Warne shows this.

    If I did exclude Sachin's first series against Akram (when he was 16), Sachin's average against Akram will go further down. That is exactly why I included it. Excluding that Sachin has scored 180 runs in 6 innings against Akram at an even lesser average of 30.

    My entire point in making the post was not quoting selective names like McGrath/Donald/Akram and disparaging Sachin. Your hero worship of him is very clear (as to how you have taken the post).

    If you want to include a geriatric Ambrose on dead pitches as a "lethal bowling attack", do it by all means. It doesn't change a thing.

    I am looking for batsmen who were consistent against formidable pace attacks. Attacks that make you think "Jesus, how are we going to survive till the end of the day's play?". West Indian pace attack in the early 80s or the Aussie attack in mid 70s are some examples. From the stats, Sachin certainly doesn't cut it.

  7. #22
    International Vice-Captain robelinda's Avatar
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    Ambrose was just above medium fast-ish pace by the 95 Eng tour, he had the bounce still but wasnt the force he was before. He never got hit around while he was getting older, and his record was still good, but he was menacing and quick from say 88-93. maybe i'd include the 94 series v Eng- they had no idea on occasions ( the mental 46 test!), but handled him easily most of the time, especially Thorpe and Stewart.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altaican View Post
    In another thread, one user posted modest stats of Viv Richards against Pakistan and Australia, and claimed him to be over-rated. I have applied similar logic to Sachin Tendulkar's career. The results are quite damning. Do the stats of all great batsmen fall spectacularly (like Sachin's) against truly great fast bowlers?

    <From that Post>

    In Tests, Sachin averages a modest 36.77 against Australia when McGrath plays.

    It is very noticeable that most of his Test runs/stellar performances against Australia have invariably come only when McGrath was absent, basically against second rate (good, but not great) fast bowlers like Brett Lee, Mitchell Johnson, Kasper, Damien Fleming, Paul Riefel etc. Whenever McGrath is absent from the Australian attack, Sachin's average almost doubles (averages nearly 70 against Australia when McGrath is absent!!!).


    Against other great fast bowlers whom he faced at the peak of their powers in Test Match cricket, Sachin averages a pathetic 32 against South Africa whenever Allan Donald has played.

    I really don't know whether to include Wasim Akram here since India-Pak never played a series for nearly 10 years (between 1989 to 99 for political reasons) during which Akram was at his absolute peak. But Akram bowled very very well in 1999 when they played each other. In any case, Tendulkar averages an equally pathetic 32 against Pakistan whenever Wasim Akram has played.

    Once again, he revelled against the respective teams (South Africa and Pakistan) when these bowlers were absent.

    Against the 3 greatest fast bowlers of his era, whom he faced in more than one Test series, McGrath, Donald and Akram, Sachin has scored 1719 Test runs at a modest average of 34.3 (compared to his career average of 56).


    Here is the clincher:

    Of all the Test series Sachin has played against these great fast bowlers (McGrath,Donald,Akram), more than 7 series including home and away, only once did he average more than 50 in a series!, that too just barely, when he averaged 50.66 against McGrath in 2000-01 series at home in India. Even more stunning is the fact that only once was he India's best batsman in all the Test series against these bowlers (so much for him being the batting mainstay of India against great attacks). This is the very definition of being over-rated.

    The only truly great fast bowler Sachin has had some success against is Curtly Ambrose. But Sachin never faced Ambrose (or the West Indian attack) at their peak. He played only one Test series against Ambrose, that too in 1997, on the dead pitches of the Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws). Ambrose was 35 years old and couple of years away from retirement back then.


    Amazingly, the trend of Tendulkar's poor stats against great fast bowlers continues in ODIs. In spite of all the batsmen-favoured rules and pitches, Sachin's stats against these bowlers in ODIs are equally pathetic! A measly average of 31 (2222 runs @ 31.64) in ODIs after playing 70+ ODIs against McGrath/Donald/Akram. Only 2 of Sachin's ODI hundreds came against these bowlers (both against McGrath in the sub-continent). In 26 ODI innings against Donald, Sachin managed to cross fifty just 3 times!
    MY GOD. With all due respect, this is one of the worst examples of stats picking to try ridicule a great player i think i've ever seen on the net. SMH..

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by robelinda View Post
    Sachin scored a great hundred in 1992 vs SA with Donald, dont know why you want to discount that.
    I am not discounting that at all. It is actually included in the stats that I have posted. Just see the links. I am not saying Sachin cannot play fast bowling. No. That is not the point. Even a guy named Praveen Amre also scored a great century in that same series against a same formidable attack (1992 SA). Ravi Shastri too has scored a brave century in Barbados in 1989 against a young Ambrose, Bishop, Walsh and Marshall. Several batsmen have done it. It is not the occasional 100s that I am looking for. It is for consistentcy against great pace attacks.

    Consistency is what is generally valued. This is why you hear stats like "average against Australia" or "average against Australia in Australia" etc. as an index of greatness. The ultimate is consistent domination. It would be ridiculous to expect a batsman to succeed against great attacks every time. See, Richards failed in a couple of series against Pakistan. But he also had towering successes against them.

    This is exactly why Sachin's lack of a single towering Test series AND modest career averages against McGrath/Donald/Akram can be held against him, especially if Richards career average against Australia/Pak is held against him. For example: when Lara scored all those runs (500+ runs at 90+ average) against McGrath in 1998-99 series, no other West Indian batsman averaged above 30 in that series! Lara scored about 45% of his Team's runs. That is an example of a truly spectacular performance against a great attack (McGrath took 30 wickets in those 4 Tests -- shows you the kind of form he was in, and what Lara was against -- and was superbly supported by Gillespie).

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie View Post
    MY GOD. With all due respect, this is one of the worst examples of stats picking to try ridicule a great player i think i've ever seen on the net. SMH..
    I agree.

  11. #26
    International Vice-Captain robelinda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altaican View Post
    I am not discounting that at all. It is actually included in the stats that I have posted. Just see the links. I am not saying Sachin cannot play fast bowling. No. That is not the point. Even a guy named Praveen Amre also scored a great century in that same series against a same formidable attack (1992 SA). Ravi Shastri too has scored a brave century in Barbados in 1989 against a young Ambrose, Bishop, Walsh and Marshall. Several batsmen have done it. It is not the occasional 100s that I am looking for. It is for consistentcy against great pace attacks.

    Consistency is what is generally valued. This is why you hear stats like "average against Australia" or "average against Australia in Australia" etc. as an index of greatness. The ultimate is consistent domination. It would be ridiculous to expect a batsman to succeed against great attacks every time. See, Richards failed in a couple of series against Pakistan. But he also had towering successes against them.

    This is exactly why Sachin's lack of a single towering Test series AND modest career averages against McGrath/Donald/Akram can be held against him, especially if Richards career average against Australia/Pak is held against him. For example: when Lara scored all those runs (500+ runs at 90+ average) against McGrath in 1998-99 series, no other West Indian batsman averaged above 30 in that series! Lara scored about 45% of his Team's runs. That is an example of a truly spectacular performance against a great attack (McGrath took 30 wickets in those 4 Tests -- shows you the kind of form he was in, and what Lara was against -- and was superbly supported by Gillespie).
    Sorry wasnt directed at you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by robelinda View Post
    Ambrose was just above medium fast-ish pace by the 95 Eng tour, he had the bounce still but wasnt the force he was before. He never got hit around while he was getting older, and his record was still good, but he was menacing and quick from say 88-93. maybe i'd include the 94 series v Eng- they had no idea on occasions ( the mental 46 test!), but handled him easily most of the time, especially Thorpe and Stewart.
    Ambrose had a shoulder surgery in 1994. He missed the India tour because of that. He was never the same bowler again. He could occasionally bowl great spells after that like he did at the MCG in 1996-97 series. In his first Test series after the shoulder surgery, West Indies lost a Test series for the first time in 15 years. From 1988-93, he literally was "The Ogre" in Test cricket, gobbling up batting line-ups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Altaican View Post
    I did include Ambrose in the original post. Please read the original post in the "Viv Richards over-rated" thread. The only time Sachin faced Ambrose was in 1997 against a 35 year old Ambrose clearly past his best and on the dead wickets of Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws with Sidhu scoring double ton in one of them). I never recall Sachin facing a prime Ambrose or a full-strength WIPQ (West Indian Pace Quartret) in Test match cricket.
    By that some logic...would you remove Tendulkar facing Akram in the 89 series? He was just a 17 year old kid then. That leaves you with what - two meaningful tests?

    Against SA pacers, Sachin Tendulkar has had genuine weakness and it has shown over 12 or more innings. He has consistently been average in every series.

    But to discredit him by using his numbers against Pak, against whom he hardly played and his debut series against them as a 17 year old still forms half his experience against them, is quite a bit tenuous.

    Similarly the numbers against McGrath are fairly credible if you click on the link. You have a random one-off test from 95 where he averages 5, and the 2004/2005 series where he was possibly in the worst form of his life following the recovery from Tennis Elbow. So if you exclude that in more than 12 innings he averages 47+ not too shabby against one of the all time greats, and part of possibly one the greatest bowling attacks in Cricket history. He was also top scorer for India in 7 of those 12 innings. VVS Laxman topped him in a Sydney test, and then there is the epic Eden gardens test match with VVS and Dravid. So, it turns out he did very well against McGrath as a matter of fact.

    He has weaknesses. No body is perfect. All this nit-picking and time wasting is silly....i'm not going to dive into Cricinfo stats page and waste my time to debate against a very tenuous and tedious point.
    Last edited by kingjulian; 05-10-2010 at 07:18 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altaican View Post
    It is subjective. I have seen several batsmen from Lara to Tendulkar to Sidhu to even Ravi Shastri and Nayan Mongia consistently thrash the living daylights out of world's greatest spinners like Warne and Murali, even in a Test match on spin friendly wickets. I have not seen a batsman consistently dominate a fast bowler like Malcolm Marshall or Ambrose (at his peak 88-93) or Andy Roberts in Test match cricket. Yes, you might find one odd innings like Gavaskar's aggressive century at Delhi against Marshall in 1983-84 series, or Fredrick's 169 at Perth against Thommo and Lillee in 1975-76 series or Kim Hughes performance against WIPQ in the early 80s. But those are exceptions. Consistently dominating really great fast bowlers (of Lillee-McGrath-Marshall class) in Test match cricket, to me is real batsmanship.

    Richards, and to a lesser extent Adam Gilchrist, were the only batsmen who did this with some degree of consistency. This is exactly why Imran worships Richards. Again, it is subjective. These are just my views. It is not necessary for you to agree.
    Really? When on spin friendly wickets?

    That post is a load of nonsense to be honest.
    You are making it seem as if facing Murali and Warne was a piece of cake vs the likes of Mcgrath and Ambrose.

    I see you rate Richards but you are just making selective and strange points after points demeaning others without any real basis to show him in a good light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robelinda View Post
    Agree, also Steve Waugh's ton in the first innings of 3rd test 97 Ashes was a gem.

    In regards to Sachin's average v SA with Donald, Steve Waugh must have averaged way over 50. If anything Steve Waugh is underrated these days. Donald has said the two players he found most hard to bowl to were the Waugh twins, but Steve in particular.
    Allan Donald on Sachin Tendulkar | Cricket Features | Twenty Years of Tendulkar | Cricinfo.com

    He is No. 1 in my book - the best player I have ever had the privilege of bowling to. There's Steve Waugh and there's Brian Lara, who was wonderful in 1995, but Tendulkar is a class above, consistently special.

    The truth says hi.

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