ESPNcricinfo World XI

[vcs]

Every country seems to have a couple of home-track bullies bar England (whose batsmen rarely bully anyone anywhere ) and SA, which is a pretty tough place to bat except for visiting Australian batsmen.

 

[ankitj]

Clearly Sehwag atm. But then again, its judging one player whose career is reaching its conclusion while anothers is at its peak. Need both to retire before a definitive answer can be given

That's all I want to hear. Sehwag gets belittled too much on this forum to my liking when no one says he is as good as a Ponting.

And even you add a rider Hussey never got a double hundred, leave alone getting it at a run a ball. Clearly he has not left oppositions under debris like Sehwag many times has.

 

[GotSpin]

That's all I want to hear. Sehwag gets belittled too much on this forum to my liking when no one says he is as good as a Ponting.

And even you add a rider Hussey never got a double hundred, leave alone getting it at a run a ball. Clearly he has not left oppositions under debris like Sehwag many times has.

I was responding to Sehwag v Hussey ftr - Not Sehwag v ponting. that's another story for another day

 

[Avada Kedavra]

How is it Sehwag's fault that McGrath retired before India's tour in 08(no point mentioning Warne because Sehwag eats spinners for breakfast).The one time Sehwag faced McGrath in a series he did ok(2004).To simply belittle his excellent record in Aus is quite frankly,ridiculous.

Out of interest,I looked up M.Hussey's stats.

Overseas Averages

(Home 62.66)
SA 19.00
Eng 31.36
NZ 31
WI 22.83
Ind 44.82
(hasn't played in SL or Pak yet)

Forget the Jayawardene's and Sehwag's,that record is almost as bad as Samaraweera's!

 

[Flem274*]

Hussey's stats in all areas (not just home/away record) somewhat skewed by being Godlike for a while then falling away heavily.

Would be interested to see home/away records of other batsmen though.

 

[TumTum]

Sehwag gets belittled too much on this forum to my liking when no one says he is as good as a Ponting.

Because he isn't.

 

[Ruckus]

Unless the bowler is hooping it around at only 125kph, batsmen will rarely look comfortable against swing. That's why swing gets wickets.

I think it would be better to say a non FTB survives against swing, even including dropped catches. Often batsmen need some good fortune along with a good technique to survive in swinging conditions. Besides, being part of a good cricket team is catching the ball. Not the opposing batsman's problem if the slips/keeper can't catch.

On success in England/SA/NZ: I don't think swing is the main challenge in these countries for subcontinental batsmen. Swing (though mainly the reverse kind) does happen in the subcontinent. I actually think it's seam movement and bounce. Bounce was the main reason Pakistan struggled in New Zealand last summer, and the bounce in South Africa is even more extreme.

EDIT: **** it, I see we've travelled over the page during the time I worte the post.

Yeh, but its all relative. Its how much better a batsman plays swing than another player. IMO out of the batsmen who average over 50, Sehwag is one of the few than stand out who seem to have particular trouble against swing. And it makes sense - for the standard player, using his technique will make it very difficult to combat swing (especially inswingers). I agree though that bounce and seam movement also play roles, its a bit too much of an oversimplification to just say 'swing' is all that matters in those areas, because sometimes even swing isn't an issue.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Another world class batsman's away record.

Kevin Pietersen

home 51.39
Aus 54
SA 25.29
SL 25.20
Pak 33.50
NZ 43.17
Ind 40.56
WI 58.00

How different is that away record to say,Sehwag's?If anything KP's is worse.

There seems to be a perception that performing away from the SC and failing in the SC is inherently better than the other way around.

Sure, Sehwag is troubled by swing,which batsman isn't?Aamer and Asif absolutely owned the quality Eng and Aus line-ups recently.What do we make of that?

 

[vcs]

Sometimes I actually think Sehwag might be considered a better batsman here if he had scored fewer runs on the subcontinent.

 

[Flem274*]

Another world class batsman's away record.

Kevin Pietersen

home 51.39
SA 25.29
SL 25.20
Pak 33.50
NZ 43.17
Ind 40.56
WI 58.00

How different is that away record to say,Sehwag's?If anything KP's is worse.

There seems to be a perception that performing in the SC and failing away from the SC is inherently better than the other way around.

Sure, Sehwag is troubled by swing,which batsman isn't?Aamer and Asif absolutely owned the quality Eng and Aus line-ups recently.What do we make of that?

I agree, there is that feeling coming from a very small minority (though none are in this conversation).

Looking at that record, Pietersen has done well against a strong subcontinental opponent, failed against another strong one, and failed against a weaker one. That knd of fits in with his inconsistency against spin as well. How big are those sample sizes away from home?

New Zealand is closest to his home conditions so no surprises he did all right out here (the ball had the wood over the bat on plenty of occassions out here as well).

His South African record is ****, though irrc that falls in his form slump. Not sure though.

If KP were to retire tomorrow, then yes he would go down as a batsman who very much preffered homelike conditions while still being an adequate player in the subcontinent (thanks to his record in India). He would have massive holes in his record in the two bouncy pitch countries, SA and Australia, though since he hasn't played a test in Australia that aspect of his batsmanship hasn't been tested much.

 

[centurymaker]

Unless the bowler is hooping it around at only 125kph, batsmen will rarely look comfortable against swing. That's why swing gets wickets.

I think it would be better to say a non FTB survives against swing, even including dropped catches. Often batsmen need some good fortune along with a good technique to survive in swinging conditions. Besides, being part of a good cricket team is catching the ball. Not the opposing batsman's problem if the slips/keeper can't catch.

On success in England/SA/NZ: I don't think swing is the main challenge in these countries for subcontinental batsmen. Swing (though mainly the reverse kind) does happen in the subcontinent. I actually think it's seam movement and bounce. Bounce was the main reason Pakistan struggled in New Zealand last summer, and the bounce in South Africa is even more extreme.

EDIT: **** it, I see we've travelled over the page during the time I worte the post.

True, reverse swing is actually harder to play than conventional swing as the ball dips in late, so swing is probably not that big an issue for sub-continent players.
On the other hand, since the tracks in the sub-continent don't really assit pacers, the batsmen face very little seam bowling so they tend to have difficulty adjusting to seam friendly conditions outside SC.
Yea, Bounce plays a huge role too since they're so accustomed to the slow and low pitches.

 

[TumTum]

^ Yeah the biggest and most common difficulty with SC batsmen on bouncy pitches is the pace and bounce of the pitch. The most common way of getting out for them is trying to cut a ball outside off stump and edging behind (or gully) or driving a ball on the up edging behind again (or gully).

 

[centurymaker]

I agree, there is that feeling coming from a very small minority (though none are in this conversation).

Looking at that record, Pietersen has done well against a strong subcontinental opponent, failed against another strong one, and failed against a weaker one. That knd of fits in with his inconsistency against spin as well. How big are those sample sizes away from home?

New Zealand is closest to his home conditions so no surprises he did all right out here (the ball had the wood over the bat on plenty of occassions out here as well).

His South African record is ****, though irrc that falls in his form slump. Not sure though.

If KP were to retire tomorrow, then yes he would go down as a batsman who very much preffered homelike conditions while still being an adequate player in the subcontinent (thanks to his record in India). He would have massive holes in his record in the two bouncy pitch countries, SA and Australia, though since he hasn't played a test in Australia that aspect of his batsmanship hasn't been tested much.

I'm pretty sure he's played in australia and scored a hundred.

 

[ankitj]

It's funny that cricinfo chose Pieterson ahead of Compton in Eng XI

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I agree, there is that feeling coming from a very small minority (though none are in this conversation).

Looking at that record, Pietersen has done well against a strong subcontinental opponent, failed against another strong one, and failed against a weaker one. That knd of fits in with his inconsistency against spin as well. How big are those sample sizes away from home?

New Zealand is closest to his home conditions so no surprises he did all right out here (the ball had the wood over the bat on plenty of occassions out here as well).

His South African record is ****, though irrc that falls in his form slump. Not sure though.

If KP were to retire tomorrow, then yes he would go down as a batsman who very much preffered homelike conditions while still being an adequate player in the subcontinent (thanks to his record in India). He would have massive holes in his record in the two bouncy pitch countries, SA and Australia, though since he hasn't played a test in Australia that aspect of his batsmanship hasn't been tested much.

I am sorry-he averages 54 in Aus.Missed it.

The sample sizes are 1-2 series everywhere,same as for Sehwag.

KP beats Sehwag in NZ and WI. Sehwag beats KP in Aus,SL,Pak,SA.They are equally bad in SA(Sehwag's better by a point),although Sehwag has a ton.So either they are both world class or they are both FTBs, AFAIC.

 

[Flem274*]

I'm pretty sure he's played in australia and scored a hundred.

That was an ODI wasn't it? Pretty sure he was injured or something during the last Ashes, or was it just Captain Fantastic aka Michael Crock?

 

[centurymaker]

That was an ODI wasn't it? Pretty sure he was injured or something during the last Ashes, or was it just Captain Fantastic aka Michael Crock?

From memory he put on a huge stand with Collingwood. I think it was in the Adelaide test.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Sometimes I actually think Sehwag might be considered a better batsman here if he had scored fewer runs on the subcontinent.

That is so true.I once saw someone arguing that Sehwag's hasn't got a double hundred outside the SC

 

[Avada Kedavra]

That was an ODI wasn't it? Pretty sure he was injured or something during the last Ashes, or was it just Captain Fantastic aka Michael Crock?

Nah mate,he has played tests in Aus(and scored a ton).Averages 54-see my post above.I somehow missed his Aus stat in my original post.

 

[Flem274*]

I am sorry-he averages 54 in Aus.Missed it.

The sample sizes are 1-2 series everywhere,same as for Sehwag.

KP beats Sehwag in NZ and WI. Sehwag beats KP in Aus,SL,Pak.They are equally bad in SA,although Sehwag has a ton.So either they are both world class or they are both FTBs.

Haha, no worries, I was sure KP didn't feature in the last Ashes as well. Didn't McGrath whack him in the ribs?

I think the last paragraph is a little simplistic tbh, and I think both batsmen are world class.

KP always held the advantage over Sehwag in New Zealand because they're so similar to conditions in England, maybe a little slower at grounds like Seddon Park. The Napier test pitch is FTB land and I'm not sure how that compares to any flat English pitches.

KP did face vastly different conditions to Sehwag down here as well. Kyle Mills, James Anderson and Tim Southee dominated batsmen at various stages of the series, and bar Napier the pitches were more sporting. When India turned up it was almost as if the groundsmen were trying to make us lose, rolling out three extremely flat wickets (props to Zaheer for gunning it on those with the ball). back in 2002 the conditions were almost the exact opposite and no batsmen bar Mark Richardson, Sachin and Dravid really had any success (Astle and Fleming chipped in with decent knocks considering the conditions). That series not only had pure greentops but NZ also had several bowlers at their peaks (Bond, Tuffey, Oram). That series will be used by many as a black mark on Sehwag's record, because he couldn't even put together a 20 or 30 which in the context of the series would have been a good contribution. If KP has played in the same series I doubt his NZ record would be as good as it is, even though he did succeed in conditions that were still bowler friendly (unless he inflated his average at Napier. I can't remember now).

On the flip side, Sehwag is simply awesome in the subcontinent. He knows how to bat over there, where in contrast Pietersen is yet to adjust in all the subcontinent countries, though England can be confident he will post some numbers there at some point considering he's succeeded in India. That discounts nothing from Sehwag though. It is just as important to succeed in spin friendly conditions as it is in bounce/movement friendly conditions.

Both were good in Australia, and without checking statsguru I think Sehwag has a few runs in England. Both are **** in South Africa barring that century in SA.

So KP has the better all round record, but not by much. Bounce isn't an issue for Sehwag, I think it's seam movement. He has one century in South Africa, but little else. However, Sehwag is still a world class player because he is Godlike against spin bowling, even in spin friendly conditions. If he batted at number five outside the subcontinent against the older ball and spinners, he'd have some good fun I reckon.