• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

English Off-Spin - Where does Graeme Swann rate?

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Well of course Jim Laker is unanimously rated as English best ever off-spinner for obvious reasons. But Swann performaces since last winter vs South Africa have been the best performances by an English spinner since Underwood (although Tufnell has his period in the early 90s) & the best from an English offie since Illingworth in the 70s.

So how highly should he be rated ATM. Best since Laker?. Or is he still be hind or on par with the likes of Ray Illingworth, David Allen, Roy Tattersal & Fred Titmis?. Discuss..
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Can't see a thread like this generating too much interest, rename 'battle of the mediocres'.

Sorely missing a debate on Greg Matthews vs Peter Taylor, tbh.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
Jim Laker and Graeme Swann mediocre? There's a first.8-)

The upcoming Ashes series in Australia will prove to be Swann's big test. Remember Laker largely failed there in 1958/59.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Since when have the Aussies been any spinner's biggest test? The biggest test for Swann is to see how he goes on his next tour of the subcontinent.
 

benchmark00

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Since when have the Aussies been any spinner's biggest test? The biggest test for Swann is to see how he goes on his next tour of the subcontinent.
Possibly refering to the nature of the pitches here not being conducive to spin bowling, SCG aside.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
Who were the best players of spin in Laker's time? I doubt India and Pakistan were really up to a level as a team to challenge England in England in the 1950s, although Pakistan did have that famous win at the Oval in 1954 but due to Mahmood the medium-pacer.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Well of course Jim Laker is unanimously rated as English best ever off-spinner for obvious reasons. But Swann performaces since last winter vs South Africa have been the best performances by an English spinner since Underwood (although Tufnell has his period in the early 90s) & the best from an English offie since Illingworth in the 70s.

So how highly should he be rated ATM. Best since Laker?. Or is he still be hind or on par with the likes of Ray Illingworth, David Allen, Roy Tattersal & Fred Titmus?. Discuss..
Despite the above mentioned all bowling on uncovered wickets, Swann's average is currently better and his strike-rate is exponentially better than Illy, Allen, Titmus & co. Not that figures are everything of course, but they're a start. Against that, the umpires recent willingness to give lbw's has helped him enormously, as has the introduction of UDRS.

I'd argue that his performances to data are the best by an English spinner that I've seen.
 

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Swann looks really good ATM. It will be interesting to see how he bounces back when batsmen inevitably start figuring him out in a year or so.
 

flibbertyjibber

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Swann looks superb right now but he has been helped this summer by playing against Bangladesh and a Pakistan team that aren't very good.If we come back in a years time when we have played Australia away and India and Sri Lanka at home we will have a far greater idea about where he stands in the all time list.

Same goes for Finn and Trott at the start of their careers,3 tough series in a row coming up and we will find out a lot about all of them during them.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Since when have the Aussies been any spinner's biggest test? The biggest test for Swann is to see how he goes on his next tour of the subcontinent.
Off-spinners in general fail in Australia. And as said his real test will not be his performances against luminaries such as Imran Farhat and Kamran Akmal, but rather against Clarke, Tendulkar, Laxman etc. etc. etc. on home turf
 
Last edited:

pasag

RTDAS
He's not even half way through his career...

Things can change pretty quickly, especially for spin bowlers. Really shouldn't be any talk comparing him to retired bowlers, until the twilight of his career.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Swann looks really good ATM. It will be interesting to see how he bounces back when batsmen inevitably start figuring him out in a year or so.
I reckon Clarke and North had him fairly well figured out last year. Break up his length (either with footwork i.e. Clarke or the sweep i.e. North), don't let him get a handle on you... just like any other spinner.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Swann's big test will certainly be in Australia - its easy to lose sight of the fact that its less than two years since his Test debut but if he carries on as he has begun then in five years time he will certainly deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Jim Laker

Also I think its a bit harsh to knock Laker on the basis of his performances in the 58/59 series - by then he was 35/36 and had fitness problems - if, this winter, Swann were to emulate his 15 wickets at 21 in that series then I'm sure all England supporters would be happy
 

kingkallis

International Coach
No matter what, Swann probably is one of the best currently playing off-spinners. I'd put him ahead of Harbhajan on his current form as well...
 

Noble One

International Vice-Captain
Very hard to judge a cricketer against his contemporaries until you have witnessed a career from start till end. Swann is currently on track to be regarded as one of England's greatest post WW2 spinners, but two years of really solid form isn't enough to really judge a cricketer.

What Swann has done thus far is a remarkable achievement and worthy of many a praise. Did anyone during the early to mid 2000's ever expect the solid county spinner plying his trade for Nottinghamshire and Northamptonshire to ever become one of the leading bowlers in the world? He never appeared to be the superior option to the likes of Batty, Keedy and Brown. It would take a brave cricket pundit to predict the off-spinner with a first class average in the mid 30's would take over 100 test wickets inside 2 years at a mid 20's average.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Only thing I can say with certainly regarding the question is that he is the best of the current lot.
 

flibbertyjibber

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Only thing I can say with certainly regarding the question is that he is the best of the current lot.
Agreed,the thing is even if his career nosedives he is still easily the best off spinner we have had in the last 30 years,not that Emburey,Croft and Such were any good anyway so there isn't much competition.:laugh:
 

stumpski

International Captain
Just a mention for Pat Pocock who many judges rated a better bowler than Illingworth but who was left out for most of his early-70s peak because of Illingworth being both superior batsman and captain. Illy's reign from '69-73 also resulted in Fred Titmus being left out of the side.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Off-spinners in general fail in Australia. And as said his real test will not be his performances against luminaries such as Imran Farhat and Kamran Akmal, but rather against Clarke, Tendulkar, Laxman etc. etc. etc. on home turf
And there have been how many great off spin bowlers lately? Australia have let the likes of Vettori, Kumble, and if you go far back enough Saqlain get on top of them at some point during various home series. I think their ability to face spin gets seriously exaggerated.
 

Top