***Official*** Spot-Fixing Scandal

[Themer]

And what are those rules? So far i have not seen them...

If its not defrauding the bookies then what rule breaking are they being charged for by the ICC?

The ICC code of conduct and the law are completely different things. The ICC can have them on charges of talking to bookies, bowling deliberate no balls and not informing the ICC they'd been approached.

Scotland Yard may be able to prove that all those thing happened but they can't charge them with anything as they haven't broken any laws in doing said things. And I doubt that the Police can charge them with defrauding bookies as technically there hasn't been any bookies defrauded in this country as spot betting isn't allowed. And the bookies that this money has been won on is all from illegal bookmakers in India and Pakistan.

 

[Faisal1985]

The ICC code of conduct and the law are completely different things. The ICC can have them on charges of talking to bookies, bowling deliberate no balls and not informing the ICC they'd been approached.

Scotland Yard may be able to prove that all those thing happened but they can't charge them with anything as they haven't broken any laws in doing said things. And I doubt that the Police can charge them with defrauding bookies as technically there hasn't been any bookies defrauded in this country as spot betting isn't allowed. And the bookies that this money has been won on is all from illegal bookmakers in India and Pakistan.

This is where my issue is precisely ..the fall out of marginalizing these 3 players would be wrong as there were plenty of players after the fact who admitted to have been approached but never reported to ICC and were also not fined or charged with any ICC suspension.

If Mazhar Majeed had a side business of a bookie and spot fixing and also was player's agent then doesn't become a violation by your definition of the rules. There was a recent case where an Indian player was also seen with a woman who had relations with a bookie ..you can't start banning players on such basis.

Yes, if the police or the court or any other legal authority in UK gives anything but a clean acquittal to the players i am in agreement that ICC should proceed with harsh bans but if that does not happen it will not be fair treatment on ICC's part to ban the players only for talking with their agent who happened to be dirty.

 

[Themer]

Yes, if the police or the court or any other legal authority in UK gives anything but a clean acquittal to the players i am in agreement that ICC should proceed with harsh bans but if that does not happen it will not be fair treatment on ICC's part.

Yes but the police may not have enough to build a case in the court of law which shows that they haven't broken the law while the ICC have compelling evidence that they have broken the ICC code of conduct.

From the point of view of the law Amir bowling a no ball on purpose isn't breaking the law it is however breaking every rule in the book in relation to the ICC.

 

[smash84]

Yes but the police may not have enough to build a case in the court of law which shows that they haven't broken the law while the ICC have compelling evidence that they have broken the ICC code of conduct.

From the point of view of the law Amir bowling a no ball on purpose isn't breaking the law it is however breaking every rule in the book in relation to the ICC.

True

 

[Xuhaib]

Because we have become a theocratic state full of Mullahs!

you do know religous parties never have never recieved more then 3% votes outside Khyber-Pakhtoon.

 

[smash84]

you do know religous parties never have never recieved more then 3% votes outside Khyber-Pakhtoon.

Finally somebody puts things in perspectives.

 

[smash84]

Spot-fixing controversy: Mohammad Amir 'desperate' for international return | Pakistan Cricket News | Cricinfo.com

I have only 3 words for you

Get Lost B***H..........

I will be eating my words if he turns out innocent but the sight of him makes me mad.

 

[zaremba]

The panel of 3 judges has been named.

I have to admit I know nothing of the Kenyan, but Michael Beloff QC and Justice Albie Sachs are serious legal heavyweights

 

[Faisal1985]

you do know religous parties never have never recieved more then 3% votes outside Khyber-Pakhtoon.

Religious parties votes don't indicate the type of mentality our people have these days. In fact when was the last time we had a clean election? Except the last one and the way i see it PPP won because of BBs murder..We are living in fools paradise where all we believe in is miracles and are far from practicality. At least thats what i see from the daily info i get about Pak. I am sure there are practical people there but we are giving a lot more weight to Mullah's preaching which only talks about hating another group of people. Look at the events in Pak right now..Lal Masjid being one of them...Daata Darbar and other Holy Shrines being attacked, Shia's being attacked. All this to me one way or another comes out of Mullahism. In fact i have some serious doubts about the religious parties not being involved in these acts..

Recently read an article on Dawn talking about the content of the text books in Punjab and Sindh and how its full of controversial teachings of Islam and nothing else. Some of the things being taught are not even facts of history.

 

[Faisal1985]

Yes but the police may not have enough to build a case in the court of law which shows that they haven't broken the law while the ICC have compelling evidence that they have broken the ICC code of conduct.

From the point of view of the law Amir bowling a no ball on purpose isn't breaking the law it is however breaking every rule in the book in relation to the ICC.

If that point of view is proven beyond a reasonable doubt then there is no question about punishment. I just don't know what exactly is the ICC is charging the players with. Talking with the bookie who happened to be there agent. Or bowling No Ball on order...in the latter issue it should be an immediate ban no questions asked..for the former issue is what i see in its isolation from the latter being harsh since he was their agent too.

 

[four_or_six]

"Arthur has requested us to read his book,"

Lol, great quote.

 

[smash84]

"Arthur has requested us to read his book,"

Lol, great quote.

Religious parties votes don't indicate the type of mentality our people have these days. In fact when was the last time we had a clean election? Except the last one and the way i see it PPP won because of BBs murder..We are living in fools paradise where all we believe in is miracles and are far from practicality. At least thats what i see from the daily info i get about Pak. I am sure there are practical people there but we are giving a lot more weight to Mullah's preaching which only talks about hating another group of people. Look at the events in Pak right now..Lal Masjid being one of them...Daata Darbar and other Holy Shrines being attacked, Shia's being attacked. All this to me one way or another comes out of Mullahism. In fact i have some serious doubts about the religious parties not being involved in these acts..

Recently read an article on Dawn talking about the content of the text books in Punjab and Sindh and how its full of controversial teachings of Islam and nothing else. Some of the things being taught are not even facts of history.

And where does all this Mullahism come in from???? Our rulers have been less than honest about their strategies with the masses. They themselves used Islam to motivate people and to give legitimacy to their rule (no matter how far away they actually were from it). Almost everyone since the 1970s has seen Islam as a convenient tool to employ whenever they feel the need to whip up the sentiments of our emotional masses.

Promoting mullahism was state policy and they did it because they also thought that these mullahs can be conveniently used elsewhere in the region. And that is a fact. Little did they know that they had created a frankenstien and now the monster is out of their hands. Don't blame mullahism for it. Blame the rulers of the state who created this monster.

 

[Faisal1985]

And where does all this Mullahism come in from???? Our rulers have been less than honest about their strategies with the masses. They themselves used Islam to motivate people and to give legitimacy to their rule (no matter how far away they actually were from it). Almost everyone since the 1970s has seen Islam as a convenient tool to employ whenever they feel the need to whip up the sentiments of our emotional masses.

Promoting mullahism was state policy and they did it because they also thought that these mullahs can be conveniently used elsewhere in the region. And that is a fact. Little did they know that they had created a frankenstien and now the monster is out of their hands. Don't blame mullahism for it. Blame the rulers of the state who created this monster.

Its like saying don't blame the killer but blame the gov. for not catching him before he committed the crime.

I am not defending the gov's corrupt nature for as long as i can remember...i am not advocating their policy making. But i sure in hell blame the Mullah for turning the masses into vegetables who have no desire to stand up for themselves and fight for injustice or have an open mind to think about issues differently. I blame the Mullah for not making our population proactive and more inclined towards practicality then spirituality.

 

[Xuhaib]

Religious parties votes don't indicate the type of mentality our people have these days. In fact when was the last time we had a clean election? Except the last one and the way i see it PPP won because of BBs murder..We are living in fools paradise where all we believe in is miracles and are far from practicality. At least thats what i see from the daily info i get about Pak. I am sure there are practical people there but we are giving a lot more weight to Mullah's preaching which only talks about hating another group of people. Look at the events in Pak right now..Lal Masjid being one of them...Daata Darbar and other Holy Shrines being attacked, Shia's being attacked. All this to me one way or another comes out of Mullahism. In fact i have some serious doubts about the religious parties not being involved in these acts..

Recently read an article on Dawn talking about the content of the text books in Punjab and Sindh and how its full of controversial teachings of Islam and nothing else. Some of the things being taught are not even facts of history.

tbh have found local Pakistani's more moderate them Pakistani's living abroad yes there are some belts where muallahism is pretty strong but thats expected for a country with high illiteracy & strong Islamic history, Taliban attacking shrines is not depiction of any Islasmic ideology its just a bunch of thugs trying to cause anarchy for some unknown agendas.

 

[Faisal1985]

tbh have found local Pakistani's more moderate them Pakistani's living abroad yes there are some belts where muallahism is pretty strong but thats expected for a country with high illiteracy & strong Islamic history, Taliban attacking shrines is not depiction of any Islasmic ideology its just a bunch of thugs trying to cause anarchy for some unknown agendas.

Illiteracy is certainly one of the biggest problems and that is the reason it is so easy for hard liners to penetrate the innocent.

I don't have any concrete numbers to say who is more moderate or not. I only talk based on my interaction with people who i know are educated living in Pak, my childhood friends and other relatives etc. There views really throw me off, they always are talking about fairy tails and miracles and God knows what else....the books that read are full of the same thing....it is almost philosophy at best...obviously Mullaism is up there when it comes to violence...Sipah-e-Siahaba and other such organizations are religiously driven to cause violence. Obviously Religion doesn't teach that...but i am not comfortable listening to the views of an average young male's or female's thoughts about how they want their lives to be spent based on teachings of Islam and at the end there whole life is confined to only spirituality.

There must be people abroad with hard line views no question about it...but it gives a good opportunity to see for yourself the difference in how our Pakistanis live in Pak and how they live here....a lot of them change there views.

 

[smash84]

Illiteracy is certainly one of the biggest problems and that is the reason it is so easy for hard liners to penetrate the innocent.

but i am not comfortable listening to the views of an average young male's or female's thoughts about how they want their lives to be spent based on teachings of Islam and at the end there whole life is confined to only spirituality.
.

I don't quite understand why there has to be such a distinction between practicality and spirituality. The two can perfectly co-exist. It is just about finding the right balance.You don't have to completely tilt to one side to enjoy the benefits of the other side. As I say striking the right balance is the key.

 

[Xuhaib]

Illiteracy is certainly one of the biggest problems and that is the reason it is so easy for hard liners to penetrate the innocent.

I don't have any concrete numbers to say who is more moderate or not. I only talk based on my interaction with people who i know are educated living in Pak, my childhood friends and other relatives etc. There views really throw me off, they always are talking about fairy tails and miracles and God knows what else....the books that read are full of the same thing....it is almost philosophy at best...obviously Mullaism is up there when it comes to violence...Sipah-e-Siahaba and other such organizations are religiously driven to cause violence. Obviously Religion doesn't teach that...but i am not comfortable listening to the views of an average young male's or female's thoughts about how they want their lives to be spent based on teachings of Islam and at the end there whole life is confined to only spirituality.

There must be people abroad with hard line views no question about it...but it gives a good opportunity to see for yourself the difference in how our Pakistanis live in Pak and how they live here....a lot of them change there views.

nothing wrong in living a life based on just islam teachings, even in the most developed of countries you have people who say they have found god and live a very spiritual life wether it is the best way to live not sure. Ideally i would want people to make a significant economic contribution so that they can better their own life as well as create more opportunites for the society but I guess its still better option then to just party survive on weed and be a total good for nothing asrehole.

 

[Faisal1985]

nothing wrong in living a life based on just islam teachings, even in the most developed of countries you have people who say they have found god and live a very spiritual life wether it is the best way to live not sure. Ideally i would want people to make a significant economic contribution so that they can better their own life as well as create more opportunites for the society but I guess its still better option then to just party survive on weed and be a total good for nothing asrehole.

And its not the correct Islam they follow.... because it hinders their progress and it hinders their ability to contribute to the society as well as to the social welfare of the people as a whole, in the west there is no such issue because there is no religious political part, church is separated from government.......for me the reason why our nation is the way it is because of its continuous mentality of only following Spiritual Islam and not practical part of it. For us as Pakistanis Islam has only become Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zakat etc. The Mullah's only teach about these things again and again, over and over....i knew all this when i was 7....Is that all there is to Islam? All i am saying is we should be talking Islamic social, political, and economical systems....we should be talking about practical Islam and we should be trying to interpret Islam out of the umbrella of Greek philosophy full of fairy tails.

Either we abandon Islam and make us a secular state or we accept Islam as being the most secular code out there and implement it as such in its true sense. The reason i blame the Mullah is because they have twisted the whole concept of Islam into theocracy and we only find them as our source to understand it too. We mentally refuse to accept that we are well capable of understanding things in a more practical manner and implementing them through research and development.

 

[smash84]

Either we abandon Islam and make us a secular state or we accept Islam as being the most secular code out there and implement it as such in its true sense. The reason i blame the Mullah is because they have twisted the whole concept of Islam into theocracy and we only find them as our source to understand it too. We mentally refuse to accept that we are well capable of understanding things in a more practical manner and implementing them through research and development.

How can you say that the mullah has twisted the whole concept of Islam??? I think you are confusing two things i.e. The traditional muslim scholarship and the stupid state policies promoting a militant culture. I am not sure I was able to get my points across just a little earlier in this thread, What I was trying to say is that successive military and political regimes (also because it suited particular super power agendas whose dictates we were following) used Islam as a tool (and also particular brand i.e. jihadist islam) to whip up sentiments in the masses. The state machinery thought that these masses (or at least certain groups of individuals) could be used at its convenience whenever or wherever they wanted especially against our neighboring countries. Now once these groups were created and supported for a long time, these groups adopted their own agendas. Which is what I called Frankenstein.

As far as traditional Muslim scholarship is concerned it has a very solid foundation. It is about 1350 years of scholarship and probably the most solid legal structure you will find based in the scriptures (which in itself might not amount to much).

And I don't blame the mullah for us having such a low level of health spending and such abysmally low education rates. How can you blame the mullah for that when the mullah never even got into power circles in the first place.

I am trying to say that it really is a myth that Mullahism is the root cause of our backwardness, while the facts point in a totally different direction.

 

[smash84]

tbh have found local Pakistani's more moderate them Pakistani's living abroad yes there are some belts where muallahism is pretty strong but thats expected for a country with high illiteracy & strong Islamic history, Taliban attacking shrines is not depiction of any Islasmic ideology its just a bunch of thugs trying to cause anarchy for some unknown agendas.

True. Especially the last statement about the Taliban.