*Official* - Road to India in South Africa - 2010-11

[taipan1]

Sometimes I was sticking there.

But thats not what I meant. There aren't many cricketing brains there besides yourself and Dennis and since the movement from SuperSport its not like any new members will know about SuperSupporter. Always good to get some new opinions but us 3 wouldn't get any new members there really.

I know what you mean. Still a few good guys around but looks destined to become more of a rugby forum.

 

[aussie]

Why the hell are we comparing Sharma/Sreesanth to Wasim and Vaas? They are above average at the best of times ffs. No way comparable to those legends. And your views on SL pitches are contrary to the general opinion.

I wasn't comparing them.

I brought them because poster cricketgod, Sharma should be given some slack because he has had to bowl in the last two years on flat-subcontental roads, is the reasons for his lack of recent success in tests. Which is a poor excuse because other great sub-continental quicks of the past did not have any issue taking big hauls on SC roads wickets - thus discrediting that point.

Also as afromentiomed by me. When Sharma was bowling well 2 years vs AUS 08, he was getting the kinding reverse swing on flat pitches that made him look like the real deal. His obvious decline in that ability & pace since then - is a clear sign of his regression.

Plus i would like you to show my any stats that disapprove of my positions on SRI pitches. This is got to see.

Wow sir. Ever tried guessing why India has produced **** all pace bowlers in it's cricketing history?

The rest of your post shows your complete lack of understanding about subcontinent pitches. You're quite a knowledgable guy as regards to English and Aussie cricket, but I think you have to do a bit more research in This.

Pakistan have prioduced many great fast-bowlers who would have grown up playing on roads.

My understanding of why IND dont produce much fast-bowlers has been down to a who the young kids grow up idolising. From early days of Merchant, Hazare, Umrigar to recent Tendy/Dravid era. Most IND grow up wanting to be great batsmen - so probably not much wants to bowl fast.

Since the MRF pace foundation came about in the early 2000s (i think), more fast-bowlers (although not of great quality) have been seen in the last 10 years than in any point in INDs test history. But a new problem as developed in that, everytime a young fast-bowlers shows any sgins of potental - they are heraled as the "next Kapil Dev", they are overbowled & careers plummit i.e Pathan & potentially Sharma ATM.

With PAK its the opposite, their idols are the quicks so more kids are enocouraged to bowl fast from a young age.

Finally i dont see how my assesment on SC pitches need more researching TBF. I have seen alot of cricket in almost 15 years of seeing tests in that region & i'm fairly confident in my analysis there. But i am always willing to learn about anything about our wonderful sport - if their is indeed something i have missed.

Tell Me who?Most players Had tours in between on helpful tracks ,Its humanly impossible to maintain Consistency on F-1 Tracks ,Even When India Toured NZ They prepared flat pitches for broadcasters.

And Reverse swing needs specific conditions,It is not a given in subcontinent.

You Look at the How many test matches have results in srilanka compared to india,pakistan,bangladesh you will have the answer except ssc most ground aid swing and seam bowling,

Pitches were not as flat in 1990s if you watched cricket in that era you would surely know.

As i said above all the great SC fast-bowlers had to bowl on those roads all careers & where successful. The fact that Sharma once did that (vs AUS 08) & hasn't been able to do it now - is a clear signs of decline.

Reverse swing is always a given in the sub-continent once the fast-bowlers has the ability bowl it. Since the general flat pitches & abrasive outfield 90% time, always gets the ball scuffed up enough, so a the bowling side just needs to shine-one side & RS always happens. In all series in have seen in IND, PAK, SRI where AUS & ENG have toured for example that i have seen in almost 15 years of watching cricket, any fast-bowlers in their ranks - who could bowl reverse-swing - always got reverse-swing.

The main reason if indeed SRI have more results than IND & PAK mainly (im taking your word here blindly since i have not researched for myself), i would think was simply down to present of Murali. By no means did SRI in torus i have seen ever had more bowler friendly pitches than IND. I have defiantely seen more fast-bowler friendly test wickets in IND tours where AUS & ENG where involved - than in SRI for sure.

I did not say pitches in 1990s eveything in the cricket world where flat. I said pitches in Pakistan where flat - which has generally been the case with PAK throughout its test history. Thats not debatable.

 

[aussie]

Firdose Moonda is not usually well informed (on cricket), think he use to write about South African football... Bring back Vice or Manthorp.

Case in point from above article - "The only other upcoming player who has been identified as a genuine quick in the country is 24-year-old CJ de Villiers." CJ de Villiers is not a genuine quick and the likes of Alexander, Friend, Plaatjies, Rusty, Walters and van der Wath (he wants to play again for RSA this year) are all quicker than him. Moonda does not even mention Alexander and Plaatjies let alone the rest...

CJ seems to have fallen down the pecking order since impressing in the CL 20/20. Went on the Emerging Players Tour and was only called into the A teams tour of Sri Lanka because speedster Plaatjies got injured again. Though he could be the type of bowler you would want to face the Indians giving CJ's height and style.

Alexander had a good tour down under but he has just comeback from a serious injury but pre-injury he was swinging it both ways at 145kph+. Really good bowler to watch and very attacking.

Don't think we will see Tahir, especially with Botha's performance last test in the Windies, Botha's ability with the bat and Botha's greater role in the RSA set-up.

Intersing that you say this about the author. If true, but surprised cricinfo would let someone like that right for them.

- Nice to hear Van Der Wath want to play for SA again. Always was a fan. If De Wet doesn't make it in time. I'd pick him ahead of Parnell.

- I think it would be fair to say Botha wickets vs WI earlier this year dont mean much. WI batting was woeful really. I cant see him troubling good batsmen @ test level - especially the Indians who are obviously so good againts spin. SA probably may not need a spinner for this series - if they are smart & produce really greentops/bouncy decks. Similar 5-man pace-attack that killed ENG in the Jo'Burg test earlier this year should be used for all test IMO.

 

[Cricket_God]

I wasn't comparing them.

I brought them because poster cricketgod, Sharma should be given some slack because he has had to bowl in the last two years on flat-subcontental roads, is the reasons for his lack of recent success in tests. Which is a poor excuse because other great sub-continental quicks of the past did not have any issue taking big hauls on SC roads wickets - thus discrediting that point.

Also as afromentiomed by me. When Sharma was bowling well 2 years vs AUS 08, he was getting the kinding reverse swing on flat pitches that made him look like the real deal. His obvious decline in that ability & pace since then - is a clear sign of his regression.

Plus i would like you to show my any stats that disapprove of my positions on SRI pitches. This is got to see.




Pakistan have prioduced many great fast-bowlers who would have grown up playing on roads.

My understanding of why IND dont produce much fast-bowlers has been down to a who the young kids grow up idolising. From early days of Mercent, Hazare, Umrigar to recent Tendy/Dravid era. Most IND grow up wanting to be great batsmen - so probably not much wants to bowl fast.

Since the MRF pace foundation came about in the early 2000s (i think), more fast-bowlers (although not of great quality) have been seen in the last 10 years than in any point in INDs test history. But a new problem as developed in that, everytime a young fast-bowlers shows any sgins of potental - they are heraled as the "next Kapil Dev", they are overbowled & careers plummit i.e Pathan & potentially Sharma ATM.

With PAK its the opposite, their idols are the quicks so more kids are enocouraged to bowl fast from a young age.

Finally i dont see how my assesment on SC pitches need more researching TBF. I have seen alot of cricket in almost 15 years of seeing tests in that region & i'm fairly confident in my analysis there. But i am always willing to learn about anything about our wonderful sport - if their is indeed something i have missed.




As i said above all the great SC fast-bowlers had to bowl on those roads all careers & where successful. The fact that Sharma once did that (vs AUS 08) & hasn't been able to do it now - is a clear signs of decline.

Reverse swing is always a given in the sub-continent once the fast-bowlers has the ability bowl it. Since the general flat pitches & abrasive outfield 90% time, always gets the ball scuffed up enough, so a the bowling side just needs to shine-one side & RS always happens. In all series in have seen in IND, PAK, SRI where AUS & ENG have toured for example that i have seen in almost 15 years of watching cricket, any fast-bowlers in their ranks - who could bowl reverse-swing - always got reverse-swing.

The main reason if indeed SRI have more results than IND & PAK mainly (im taking your word here blindly since i have not researched for myself), i would think was simply down to present of Murali. By no means did SRI in torus i have seen ever had more bowler friendly pitches than IND. I have defiantely seen more fast-bowler friendly test wickets in IND tours where AUS & ENG where involved - than in SRI for sure.

I did not say pitches in 1990s eveything in the cricket world where flat. I said pitches in Pakistan where flat - which has generally been the case with PAK throughout its test history. Thats not debatable.

Which Subcontinental quicks are you taking about?Pitches in pakistan aided reverse swing and sometimes were bowler friendly during wasim and waqar,look a pre-2000 there stats you will have the answer,Vaas has taken wickets and it is mostly due to conditions he is far too limited a bowler to bowl on flat pitches,And most of them had tours to more bowler friendly conditions between bowling on F-1 Tracks.Coming Sharma Losing Pace is load of crap speed guns used in subcontinent are wrong,last he went to nz he clocked 145+km/h with fastest of 148km/h.

You have seen how ineffective asif,aamer,gul were in subcontinent and how good they are overseas,Pitches are main thing in cricket in recent years india depends on pace bowling to win test matches more than the spinners even in india.

Outfield are lush green now, so the lack of reverse swing is not surprising at most gounds.

 

[Cricket_God]

Mate, you obviously didn't see him against England then. Obviously England, Australia and ourselves play quick bowling on bouncy, fast wickets as well as any and if England struggled with him...no disrespects to India who has a great batting line-up but I can't see them handling it.

One advantage of Mickey leaving (great coach) is that we now have a top ex-bowler in Corrie Van Zyl as our coach and its starting to show in Morne's improvements and consistency if you like.

Most seem to forget we have that man Jacques Kallis who loves to bowl to sub-continent batsman on our tracks as well.

Parnell is raw but he brings that variety in left-arm to our attack. He is young and I don't care if he goes for 5 an over but one thing he has to counteract that and that is...he is a wicket-taker.

What was the outcome of the series versus england?If tracks are bowling friendly its not that southafrican batsman will make merry,Smith,amla,AB,duminy all have problems with moving ball.

 

[akilana]

everybody has problems with 'moving balls.'

 

[Cricket_God]

everybody has problems with 'moving balls.'

some have more than others

 

[honestbharani]

Well The Oval and Old Trafford are as hard as highways and get good bounce and carry.

All he said was that the bounce is different to what you get in SA and AUS.

In England its more tannis ball bounce. Probably the closest pitch to that in SA is at Port Elizabeth.

In SA and AUS...the bounce is more skiddy off the surface and hence quicker because it doesn't bounce as steep off the pitch.

No way.. Old Trafford is definitely not hard and fast and not at all comparable to any of the Aussie or SA tracks.. And Oval is about as hard as Chepauk.. So no, not in the same ball park as the grounds in RSA and Oz..

 

[Uppercut]

Old Trafford is properly quick, mate, especially early in the year. Trust me, I live there .

 

[honestbharani]

Old Trafford is properly quick, mate, especially early in the year. Trust me, I live there .

lol.. will take your word for it. Though the tests I have seen there don't gimme that impression. And even if it were quick, I don't think it provides that sorta hard bounce.. Just an impression from watching on TV, obviously. You maybe in a better position to comment.


And would still be surprised if it were any more hand and bouncy than Chepauk.

 

[vcs]

Isn't Headingley traditionally the quickest and bounciest wicket in England?

Have always associated the Oval with somewhat docile wickets.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Isn't Headingley traditionally the quickest and bounciest wicket in England?

Have always associated the Oval with somewhat docile wickets.

No, pretty sure it's just that it's the one where the ball is most likely to move around.

The Oval isn't necessarily docile, it's just that there isn't a huge amount of movement, but there's good bounce and carry. When you get in, it's cash in time.

 

[Uppercut]

Isn't Headingley traditionally the quickest and bounciest wicket in England?

Have always associated the Oval with somewhat docile wickets.

My understanding is that:

Headingley is reknowned for doing stuff when it's cloudy and doing nothing when it's sunny. It's probably something in the pitch that extenuates the effect of swing- edges pretty much never drop short of the slips, for example.

The Oval is generally flat, but bouncy with medium pace. It makes for pretty decent cricket to watch imo. The obvious exception is last year when they completely cooked it to get a result in the last Ashes test.

Old Trafford is quicker than either, and it turns and bounces. When New Zealand played there in '07 the commentators were even questioning whether it was the fastest pitch in the world, given Perth's decline. Can't say I'd agree with that, but the fact that they even asked shows the nature of the pitch. Although they don't play many tests there anymore, and it seems to be dying. Just like all fast pitches seem to.

 

[Sir Alex]

And would still be surprised if it were any more hand and bouncy than Chepauk.

Hand?

 

[taipan1]

What was the outcome of the series versus england?If tracks are bowling friendly its not that southafrican batsman will make merry,Smith,amla,AB,duminy all have problems with moving ball.

Did you even watch the SA/England series?

If you did you might have noticed England scraped a drawn series, being 9 down in 2 tests.

 

[marc71178]

And since the South African attack could only take 20 wickets once in 4 games, I suspect that faced with a stronger batting line-up they'll struggle.

 

[aussie]

And since the South African attack could only take 20 wickets once in 4 games, I suspect that faced with a stronger batting line-up they'll struggle.

Hold up. Dont make it sound as if ENGs batting dominated or was on top of the SA bowling or anything during that series.

Injuries (Steyn 1st tes two tests, Kallis in the 1st coudn't bowl - De wet for final innings of the 3rd test) & poor selection (Nitni in the 1st two test when he was clearly finished). Prevented SA from fielding their best attack until at least the 3rd & 4th tests mainly.

So its fairly daft to imply that just because technically SA only took 20 wickets 1 in that 4 test series, that when faced with a stronger IND batting they would struggle. When SA had their full-strenght attack by the final two test (especially in the final test) ENG batsmen where owned. Theirfore once they field a similar full-strenght attack - without a doubt they will have the edge over INDs batting, who outside of Tendy & Laxman - their top 7 is very suspect in pace-bowler friendly conditons.

 

[aussie]

Which Subcontinental quicks are you taking about?Pitches in pakistan aided reverse swing and sometimes were bowler friendly during wasim and waqar,look a pre-2000 there stats you will have the answer,Vaas has taken wickets and it is mostly due to conditions he is far too limited a bowler to bowl on flat pitches,And most of them had tours to more bowler friendly conditions between bowling on F-1 Tracks.Coming Sharma Losing Pace is load of crap speed guns used in subcontinent are wrong,last he went to nz he clocked 145+km/h with fastest of 148km/h.

You have seen how ineffective asif,aamer,gul were in subcontinent and how good they are overseas,Pitches are main thing in cricket in recent years india depends on pace bowling to win test matches more than the spinners even in india.

Outfield are lush green now, so the lack of reverse swing is not surprising at most gounds.

If pitches in PAK during the Wasim/Waqar era where ever bowler friendly, it clearly was very limited to my knowledge & research. The pitches in PAK now AFAIK currently in this 2000s era, are as flat as they where during the 90s & any point in PAK test history playing @ home.

What do you mean Vaas was too limited as a bowler to bowl on flat pitches?. Thats so inaccurate, either you didn't watch Vaas bowl much or you have forgetten. I sincerly hope its that latter, but i'll just give you one example that will disapprove your point sir:

1st Test: West Indies v Sri Lanka at Providence, Mar 22-26, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

That was his last notable test match bowling performance before he declined due to a stark drop in pace. It was played on a very flat Providence wicket in Guyana (comparable to pitches he grew up playing in SRI) & he bowled SRI to victory on that flat pitches with a mixture of nagging accuracy - off-cutters - reverse swing.

I'm not sure how it isn't obvious that Sharma has lost pace in the last 2 years. If you dont think he has i cant argue with that. I saw a bit of the IND vs NZ test series & i certainly have no recollection of Sharma bowling that fast in that series. High 130s & a few balls in just over 140 - nothing close to 145-148.

Aamir has hardly played much in the sub-continent. IIRC when he made his debut in SRI, he certainly impressed from very early. Aamir quite obviously is MUCH better bowled this summer than he was in his debut series. He definately has the ability to reverse-swing the ball as well, so presuming he doesn't get a life ban - i would certainly expect him to be very dangerous on flat pitches.

I have seen no evidence that would suggest Gul would be ineffective on flat pitches either. He is a clear natural reverse-swing exponent. Obviously he hasn't replicated his superb ODI/T20 reverse-swing death bowling in tests that consistently. But on flat wickets he would certainly be a force.

Asif yes he does become less effective when the pitch is flat. He is forced into being a McGrath line metronome since he needs seaming conditons to be @ his best.

Lush green outfield doesn't prevent reverse-swing. Did you not watch the Ashes 2005, when the ENG bowlers got reverse-swing?. The lush outfields didn't stop them.

The only conditons that can stop reverse swing is a damp outfield & green pitch. Since of course for reverse swing we the need to pitch & outfied to rough the ball enough so that one side can be kept shined & the other scuffed up. The most a lush-green outside can do is slow down reverse-swing from coming into effect early - but once the pitch is abrasive & the fielding side take care of the ball properly - reverse-swing will always be there.

 

[Cricket_God]

If pitches in PAK during the Wasim/Waqar era where ever bowler friendly, it clearly was very limited to my knowledge & research. The pitches in PAK now AFAIK currently in this 2000s era, are as flat as they where during the 90s & any point in PAK test history playing @ home.

What do you mean Vaas was too limited as a bowler to bowl on flat pitches?. Thats so inaccurate, either you didn't watch Vaas bowl much or you have forgetten. I sincerly hope its that latter, but i'll just give you one example that will disapprove your point sir:

1st Test: West Indies v Sri Lanka at Providence, Mar 22-26, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

That was his last notable test match bowling performance before he declined due to a stark drop in pace. It was played on a very flat Providence wicket in Guyana (comparable to pitches he grew up playing in SRI) & he bowled SRI to victory on that flat pitches with a mixture of nagging accuracy - off-cutters - reverse swing.

I'm not sure how it isn't obvious that Sharma has lost pace in the last 2 years. If you dont think he has i cant argue with that. I saw a bit of the IND vs NZ test series & i certainly have no recollection of Sharma bowling that fast in that series. High 130s & a few balls in just over 140 - nothing close to 145-148.

Aamir has hardly played much in the sub-continent. IIRC when he made his debut in SRI, he certainly impressed from very early. Aamir quite obviously is MUCH better bowled this summer than he was in his debut series. He definately has the ability to reverse-swing the ball as well, so presuming he doesn't get a life ban - i would certainly expect him to be very dangerous on flat pitches.

I have seen no evidence that would suggest Gul would be ineffective on flat pitches either. He is a clear natural reverse-swing exponent. Obviously he hasn't replicated his superb ODI/T20 reverse-swing death bowling in tests that consistently. But on flat wickets he would certainly be a force.

Asif yes he does become less effective when the pitch is flat. He is forced into being a McGrath line metronome since he needs seaming conditons to be @ his best.

Lush green outfield doesn't prevent reverse-swing. Did you not watch the Ashes 2005, when the ENG bowlers got reverse-swing?. The lush outfields didn't stop them.

The only conditons that can stop reverse swing is a damp outfield & green pitch. Since of course for reverse swing we the need to pitch & outfied to rough the ball enough so that one side can be kept shined & the other scuffed up. The most a lush-green outside can do is slow down reverse-swing from coming into effect early - but once the pitch is abrasive & the fielding side take care of the ball properly - reverse-swing will always be there.

1990-1999 the pakistan pitches always had something for bowlers,I mean mostly against newzealand,zimbabwe,srilanka who did not have a strong seam attack there were some greentops,Nowadays you see a greentop rarely in subcontinent.

I watched that test the westindian battinghas been poor for many years now,As i said the ball was keeping low and also there was reverse swing ,you need some help unlike F-1 tracks which provide no help even on 5th day,you can look at vaas stats in india and agianst india in srilanka he was hammered on flat pitches.

Sharma touched 147km/h in T20 in nz and in test he was 137-144km/h consistently.

We are talking about true roads and conditions when the ball does not reverse.

All pakistan bowlers were ineffective in pakistan and india.

England used some shinning substance remember.Also duke ball swings more than kokaburra or s.g

Pitches now are not degrading thats the problem they stay flat for 5 days.

 

[Cricket_God]

Did you even watch the SA/England series?

If you did you might have noticed England scraped a drawn series, being 9 down in 2 tests.

Yes i watched the series,but the fact is they were unable to take 20 english wickets on helpful tracks.