Fast bowler survival round of 16

[Magrat Garlick]

Hadlee
Lillee

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Paddles
Lillee

 

[Matt79]

Hadlee
Lillee

 

[zaremba]

Larwood
Barnes

 

[gwo]

Hadlee
Lillee

This plz

 

[JBH001]

Hadlee
Barnes

 

[morgieb]

Hadlee, Barnes.

Rough voting against Lillee, but Barnes was arguably the best bowler of all time.

 

[Ikki]

Barnes is undoubtedly a great bowler, but how do you compare him to others? Not only do you not know what he bowled (pace or spin?), but what he did bowl was in a completely different era and if IIRC bowled on matting wickets.

 

[marc71178]

Larwood
Lillee

 

[andyc]

Do people actually think Larwood was better than Hadlee, or is it just patriotism shining through?

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Richard Hadlee
Sydney Barnes

 

[Teja.]

Do people actually think Larwood was better than Hadlee, or is it just patriotism shining through?

+1

Point well noted, Delegate.

 

[zaremba]

Do people actually think Larwood was better than Hadlee, or is it just patriotism shining through?

In my case, pure patriotism - plus the desire for Lol not to be completely exterminated in the voting.

Besides, Hadlee never did anything special in the Ashes.

 

[zaremba]

Barnes is undoubtedly a great bowler, but how do you compare him to others? Not only do you not know what he bowled (pace or spin?), but what he did bowl was in a completely different era and if IIRC bowled on matting wickets.

We had a very informative thread here about his bowling a year or so ago, and there's quite a lot of information available about what he actually did bowl. As I understood it, he started off as a pace bowler who cut his pace down to medium-fast-ish, who obtained his movement (primarily at least) by imparting spin on the ball. Sounds a handful.

I don't think he played much cricket on matting wickets. Maybe in South Africa? Certainly not in Australia or England as far as I'm aware.

 

[Teja.]

We had a very informative thread here about his bowling a year or so ago, and there's quite a lot of information available about what he actually did bowl. As I understood it, he started off as a pace bowler who cut his pace down to medium-fast-ish, who obtained his movement (primarily at least) by imparting spin on the ball. Sounds a handful.

I don't think he played much cricket on matting wickets. Maybe in South Africa? Certainly not in Australia or England as far as I'm aware.

Yeah, To the best of my knowledge, Barnes played on matting wickets only in SA. I deduct from what I read that he was probably a medium pacer of the style of Fazal Mahmood could make the ball 'talk'(move effectively) on normal pitches and was even more effective on Matting Wickets. However, his 'trump card' was a huge leg-break(called the Barnes ball) which bamboozled many Batsmen and was his main source of wickets. For this reason I am hesitant to include him in a discussion of Fast bowlers though I have no doubt in my mind that he was the finest bowler ever. The deductions, of course, are entirely my opinion.

 

[fredfertang]

Do people actually think Larwood was better than Hadlee, or is it just patriotism shining through?

Yes

Larwood played 10 Tests on Australian shirtfronts in 28/29 and 32/33 (although they weren't actually as perfect in 32/33)

All his Tests were played with the old lbw law

In 1930 when Bradman and the other Aussies hammered him - he took around 4 wickets for plenty - he only played three Tests due to injury but besides the injury he had serious dental problems all summer - I know from personal experience how debilatating those can be!

Playing conditions and the laws didn't favour genuinely fast bowlers in Lol's day which is why there weren't too many of them

 

[Matt79]

Yeah, To the best of my knowledge, Barnes played on matting wickets only in SA. I deduct from what I read that he was probably a medium pacer of the style of Fazal Mahmood could make the ball 'talk'(move effectively) on normal pitches and was even more effective on Matting Wickets. However, his 'trump card' was a huge leg-break(called the Barnes ball) which bamboozled many Batsmen and was his main source of wickets. For this reason I am hesitant to include him in a discussion of Fast bowlers though I have no doubt in my mind that he was the finest bowler ever. The deductions, of course, are entirely my opinion.

Is there ultimately a lot of difference between a leg-cutter and a leg-break?

 

[Teja.]

Is there ultimately a lot of difference between a leg-cutter and a leg-break?

Firstly, I must admit I am not an expert on the subject. Though, the model of movement for the leg-break and the leg-spin is the same, there are some differences.

The Leg Break is bowled with the help of both the movement of the wrist and the roll of the fingers using the anti-clockwise effect to induce extra spin whereas the Leg Cutter has the wrist firmly in position while still rolling the ball of the fingers to induce spin(not as much as the break) to cause movement off the pitch.

The Leg Cutter is generally used as a variation ball in a fast bowler's weaponry as a more effective version of the slower ball which results in the ball not only unexpectedly coming at a slower pace but also moving off the pitch, making it a very deceiving ball if bowled well. The Leg cutter can be bowled with only a slight loss in pace but for the Leg Break, due to the wrist movement and the increased roll of the fingers, a great amount of pace has to be sacrificed.

My take, on hearing about the great movement Barnes was able to get with the Barnes ball and the tales of wonder-struck batsmen is that Barnes bowled a genuine leg-break(a la Afridi, Warne) as his variation ball.

EDIT:- Sorry for the unintentional Hijack, Stephen.

 

[stephen]

The first two battles have closed. Voting may now commence on the third and fourth battles. Remember only to vote based on fast bowling ability.

Third battle:

Curtley Ambrose vs Ray Lindwall

Curtly Ambrose
The man with the stare
Curtly Ambrose | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

Ray Lindwall
One of the most destructive bowlers ever
Ray Lindwall | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

Fourth battle:

Imran Khan vs Michael Holding

Imran Khan
Pakistan's finest player
Imran Khan | Pakistan Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

Michael Holding
Whispering death
Michael Holding | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

Please vote for one player from each battle.

Voting will close Tuesday evening (Brisbane time).

 

[marc71178]

Ambrose
Holding