Fast bowler survival - rank the best fast bowlers of all time

[archie mac]

Botham was a fine bowler, I think he should be in

 

[Cevno]

Pakistani wickets have been as flat,if not more, than Indian wickets & Imran,Wasim,Waqar & Fazal have as good bowling averages as any other alltime great.
If you have a good average bu low wkts/match & bowled less as compared to others,it shows you lack stamina & hence don't deserve to be amongst those greats who did much better than you in those respective departments.Miller & Hall were very good bowlers but they are not alltime greats.You can't say someone is an alltime great by just looking at their average.You need to go through other variables as well.

Pakistani wickets were always better for fast bowlers than Indian ones. They always had some seam movement in them and held up due to grass ,specially karachi unlike Indian wickets whcih used to be dry and dusty with the ball kepping low. It is only after 2000 that paksitani wickets (some of them) became flat. Though not all of them.

 

[stephen]

I have updated the first post with the list of bowlers who will compete.

As there is 11 wildcards, there will be three groups of 6 and five groups of 5. The groups of 6 will eliminate the bottom three bowlers and the groups of five will eliminate the bottom two bowlers.

 

[stephen]

Voting has now closed for groups A and B.

Group A

1.59 - Ambrose
2.38 - Barnes
2.56 - Waqar
3.75 - Roberts
5.09 - Bond
5.63 - Reid

Group B

1.56 - Hadlee
1.59 - Lillee
2.97 - Lindwall
4.34 - Adcock
5.00 - Gillespie
5.53 - Nissar

Players in red have been eliminated, but may still come back as a wildcard for round 3.

Voting has started on Groups C and D.

There are a number of all-rounders in this lot. Please vote only on their bowling abilities.

Group C

Bob Willis - Bob Willis | England Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Keith Miller - Keith Miller | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Alan Davidson - Alan Davidson | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Peter Pollock - Peter Pollock | South Africa Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Ian Botham - Sir Ian Botham | England Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Dale Steyn - http://search.cricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/47492.html

Group D

Shoaib Akhtar - Shoaib Akhtar | Pakistan Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Joel Garner - Joel Garner | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Frederick Spofforth - Frederick Spofforth | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Wasim Akram - Wasim Akram | Pakistan Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Kapil Dev - http://search.cricinfo.com/india/content/player/30028.html

Please vote in this thread.

 

[stephen]

Groups C and D are now closed. I will compile the results. Meanwhile, groups E and F are open.

Group C Results

1.60 - Davidson
3.10 - Steyn
3.43 - Miller
4.17 - Willis
4.27 - Botham
4.43 - Pollock

Players in red are eliminated. The numbers next to the names are average ranks. Only Davidson did not get ranked 6 by anybody. Every single player was ranked in at least 5 different positions. Steyn is the first wildcard to make it through to the next round.

Group D Results

1.47 - Akram
1.73 - Garner
3.07 - Spofforth
4.13 - Akhtar
4.60 - Dev

Group E

Fred Trueman - Fred Trueman | England Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Allan Donald - Allan Donald | South Africa Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Glenn McGrath - Glenn McGrath | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Alec Bedser - Sir Alec Bedser | England Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Jack Gregory - Jack Gregory | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

Group F

George Lohmann - George Lohmann | England Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Courtney Walsh - Courtney Walsh | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Harold Larwood - Harold Larwood | England Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Malcolm Marshall - Malcolm Marshall | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
John Snow - John Snow | England Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

And you guys thought group C was bad

I will allow the entire weekend for votes on Groups E and F.

Please vote in this thread.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Lets mention his 3 Tests against Pakistan

And 1 against SRL as well.Lets also mention he never toured Asia again on account of his business responsibilities & fake injuries.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Pakistani wickets were always better for fast bowlers than Indian ones. They always had some seam movement in them and held up due to grass ,specially karachi unlike Indian wickets whcih used to be dry and dusty with the ball kepping low. It is only after 2000 that paksitani wickets (some of them) became flat. Though not all of them.

LOL.Pakistani wickets from 1970s-90s were on the whole flattest there have ever been in history of cricket.Pak-Aus 1983 series & PAK-IND 1989 series are 2 prime examples that spring to mind.Young people said "Can wickets be flatter than that?" in first 2 tests of 2006 PAK-IND series but those from 70s-90s were much flatter than those.I think you either do not know much about Pakistani wickets are trying to make an excuse for India not being able to produce an alltime great bowler.Whole world knows how wickets have been in Pakistan.

 

[stephen]

Can you guys keep the "this bowler was better than this other bowler" stuff out of this thread please. The proper places for that are in the voting threads/other threads.

Thanks.

 

[stephen]

Results for the last two groups of round 1:

Group G

1.14 - Michael Holding
2.86 - Wes Hall
2.90 - Brian Statham
3.52 - Fazal Mahmood
4.57 - Jack Cowie

Group H

1.29 - Imran Khan
2.52 - Shaun Pollock
2.86 - Frank Tyson
4.05 - Ian Bishop
4.29 - Maurice Tate

Players in red have been eliminated.

This leaves these 24 fast bowlers, who progress to round 2:

Sydney Barnes
Curtly Ambrose
Waqar Younis
Dennis Lillee
Richard Hadlee
Ray Lindwall
Alan Davidson
Dale Steyn
Keith Miller
Wasim Akram
Joel Garner
Frederick Spofforth
Glenn McGrath
Fred Trueman
Allan Donald
Malcolm Marshall
Harold Larwood
Courtney Walsh
Michael Holding
Wes Hall
Brian Statham
Imran Khan
Shaun Pollock
Frank Tyson

Eliminated bowlers (by average ranking):

3.52 - Fazal Mahmood
3.54 - George Lohmann
3.75 - Andy Roberts
3.82 - Alec Bedser
4.05 - Ian Bishop
4.11 - John Snow
4.13 - Shoaib Akhtar
4.17 - Bob Willis
4.27 - Ian Botham
4.29 - Maurice Tate
4.34 - Neil Adcock
4.43 - Peter Pollock
4.57 - Jack Cowie
4.60 - Kapil Dev
5.00 - Jack Gregory
5.00 - Jason Gillespie
5.09 - Shane Bond
5.53 - Mohammad Nissar
5.63 - Bruce Reid

 

[Athlai]

Should get to re-rate the eliminated bowlers to get a truer ranking. The bowlers who got knocked out by eventual winners will naturally suffer a bit while a few may have been beaten by guys who are about to be knocked out in the next round.

 

[andmark]

An average of 25 is not bad but a good stamina& not being injury prone are one of the essentials of alltime greats.So, based on that,people like Akhtar & Bond are not alltime greats & hence should not be included in this battle.

I realise this part's over but, Akhtar would have been great, if he could keep his temper down. He's out of the game as much as any injury prone player is, because he always gets himself banned.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Lets also mention he never toured Asia again on account of his business responsibilities & fake injuries.

It's about this idiot was removed from society for continually peddling this line every time Dennis Lillee is mentioned, it's just trolling of the worst kind. Lillee never once pulled out of a tour to Asia through injury. He missed one tour that he might have been eligible for in 1982/83. Greg Chappell missed that tour as well, no doubt he was afraid of comparing moustache's with the Supreme Being known as Imran Khan.

 

[stephen]

Should get to re-rate the eliminated bowlers to get a truer ranking. The bowlers who got knocked out by eventual winners will naturally suffer a bit while a few may have been beaten by guys who are about to be knocked out in the next round.

That might be worth doing after the group stages are done. Once we are down to the top 16, we will be able to have a seeded single elimination system for those bowlers.

 

[andyc]

Guys, like Stephen said, let's leave the x vs y arguments out of this thread.

 

[stephen]

FYI, the rankings of the 24 bowlers who made it to round 2:

1.07 - Malcolm Marshall
1.11 - Glenn McGrath
1.14 - Michael Holding
1.29 - Imran Khan
1.47 - Wasim Akram
1.56 - Richard Hadlee
1.59 - Curtly Ambrose
1.59 - Dennis Lillee
1.60 - Allan Davidson
1.73 - Joel Garner
2.25 - Fred Trueman
2.38 - Sydney Barnes
2.52 - Shaun Pollock
2.56 - Waqar Younis
2.82 - Allan Donald
2.86 - Frank Tyson
2.86 - Wes Hall
2.90 - Brian Statham
2.96 - Harold Larwood
2.97 - Ray Lindwall
3.07 - Frederick Spofforth
3.10 - Dale Steyn
3.32 - Courtney Walsh
3.43 - Keith Miller

Eliminated bowlers:

3.52 - Fazal Mahmood
3.54 - George Lohmann
3.75 - Andy Roberts
3.82 - Alec Bedser
4.05 - Ian Bishop
4.11 - John Snow
4.13 - Shoaib Akhtar
4.17 - Bob Willis
4.27 - Ian Botham
4.29 - Maurice Tate
4.34 - Neil Adcock
4.43 - Peter Pollock
4.57 - Jack Cowie
4.60 - Kapil Dev
5.00 - Jack Gregory
5.00 - Jason Gillespie
5.09 - Shane Bond
5.53 - Mohammad Nissar
5.63 - Bruce Reid

I find it interesting that none of the eliminated bowlers ended up with a higher ranking than any of the selected bowlers, which is statistically possible (though unlikely).

EDIT: I also feel like a dill for not including Jeff Thompson in as a wildcard. I don't think he'd have survived the first round, but his name should have been mentioned.

 

[NUFAN]

It's a bit tough on Bruce Reid that he has a rating above 5 because he had 6 in his round, while Gregory who got last each time ends up ahead of Reid.

Love your work though Stephen, it's proving very interesting.

 

[stephen]

It's a bit tough on Bruce Reid that he has a rating above 5 because he had 6 in his round, while Gregory who got last each time ends up ahead of Reid.

Love your work though Stephen, it's proving very interesting.

Yeah it is this (among other things) which has convinced me to do a full ranking of eliminated bowlers instead of a simple "vote for the top 2" after round 2.

And thanks for the support

 

[stephen]

Results from Groups A and B

Group A

1.26 - Glenn McGrath
1.81 - Fred Trueman
3.44 - Frank Tyson
3.48 - Dale Steyn

Literally one positional vote was the difference between Steyn and Tyson. Tyson was voted at 4 more than Steyn, but the two people who voted him #2 (fredfertang and marc71178) lifted his vote just enough to get him in.

Group B

1.85 - Dennis Lillee
2.04 - Sydney Barnes
2.67 - Wasim Akram
3.44 - Michael Holding

Holding is almost certain to get a wildcard back in for round 3. Very unlucky there. He'll probably go to the wildcard round as the top seed as well.

Voting has begun on Groups C and D

Group C

Courtney Walsh - Courtney Walsh | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Richard Hadlee - Sir Richard Hadlee | New Zealand Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Allan Donald - Allan Donald | South Africa Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Keith Miller - Keith Miller | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

Group D

Waqar Younis - Waqar Younis | Pakistan Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Wes Hall - Wes Hall | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Harold Larwood - Harold Larwood | England Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Ray Lindwall - Ray Lindwall | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

 

[subshakerz]

Pakistani wickets were always better for fast bowlers than Indian ones. They always had some seam movement in them and held up due to grass ,specially karachi unlike Indian wickets whcih used to be dry and dusty with the ball kepping low. It is only after 2000 that paksitani wickets (some of them) became flat. Though not all of them.

Think it's the opposite actually, India wickets tend to give occasional seam support whereas Pakistani wickets are more often just roads, Karachi being an exception.

 

[stephen]

Voting has well and truly closed on groups C and D

Results for Groups C and D:

Group C

1.12 - Richard Hadlee
2.00 - Allan Donald
3.36 - Keith Miller
3.52 - Courtney Walsh

Group D

1.48 - Waqar Younis
2.16 - Ray Lindwall
2.68 - Harold Larwood
3.68 - Wes Hall

Unlucky for West Indies fans with the elimination of two of their greatest.

Group E

Imran Khan - Imran Khan | Pakistan Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Alan Davidson - Alan Davidson | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Brian Statham - Brian Statham | England Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Joel Garner - Joel Garner | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

Group F

Curtly Ambrose - Curtly Ambrose | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Frederick Spofforth - Frederick Spofforth | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Malcolm Marshall - Malcolm Marshall | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com
Shaun Pollock - Shaun Pollock | South Africa Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

Voting is open for Groups E and F.